4 ms·

What's most interesting is that "empathetic communication" is generally not prioritized in software development environments, in favor of exactly the kind of po

What's most interesting is that "empathetic communication" is generally not prioritized in software development environments, in favor of exactly the kind of polite-but-direct communication the author employs. (In fact, many feel that even politeness is unnecessary or harmful. For instance, Linus Torvalds' and other OSS developers are known and regularly praised for their bluntness.) I've spoken out often on HN about the need for more of this kind of communication, but I don't see a problem with the author's tone here, and I don't see Github as a workplace that's much of an advocate for it. I think it is possible that there is some sexism here in that I'm not confident a male employee at Github would ever be challenged over failing this communication standard. That is, I think we implicitly expect women to be more empathetic and polite than men are, and get confused when they are not. Edit: Also, I have never, ever heard of a PIP being used as anything other than a strategy for building a case for firing someone. Does anyone have any counter-examples? Edit 2: Also also, the author says she had to turn down Github's severance package because it included an NDA, so she could write the article. Gross. [1] [1] https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/882636914981036032 https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/882636914981036032

faizmokhtar 9y ago
How is it sexism when the one who reported her and the manager herself is a female employee?
- ivraatiems 9y ago
  It's completely possible for a woman to behave in a sexist way towards another woman. There's an argument about whether one can be sexist against men (or racist against white people, etc.) that has to do with how the terms are defined, but I don't think that applies here.
  - faizmokhtar 9y ago
    I see, I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.
- btym 9y ago
  Good question. It's called "internalized sexism". Not too uncommon in male-dominated workplaces.
rndmwlk 9y ago
>I think it is possible that there is some sexism here in that I'm not confident a male employee at Github would ever be challenged over failing this communication standard. What leads you to this conclusion? Sexism may have been at play, or she may have been rude to the wrong person (or perceived as rude). I don't think it is appropriate to draw broad conclusions with only one side of a story and zero evidence. > Also, I have never, ever heard of a PIP being used as anything other than a strategy for building a case for firing someone. Agreed on this point, as soon as she had a phone call with manager + HR they had already decided to fire her.
- ivraatiems 9y ago
  > Sexism may have been at play, or she may have been rude to the wrong person (or perceived as rude). I don't think it is appropriate to draw broad conclusions with only one side of a story and zero evidence. It comes back to that implicit expectation. Something I've been bringing up a lot in this thread as I read the comments throughout it is that whether we consider somebody rude or not seems to depend a lot on a) who they are, and b) whether we agree with them. We are more charitable to people who are more like us and whose ideas we find more correct. We're all human, so that's part of life. However, as an organization, Github can and should do better than that, and I think here that it did not. The sexism here, if it exists, is implicit in the way problems with this person were handled and in the expectations (mostly unwritten, at least at first) about how she'd behave.
  - rndmwlk 9y ago
    >However, as an organization, Github can and should do better than that, and I think here that it did not. Consider if the situations were reversed. What if some white male engineer was simply being terse in an email to her. Might she attribute it to rudeness, sexism, or transphobia? If the company fired the engineer would you be arguing that she should be a bit more charitable in her interpretations? It can be very hard to capture the subtleties of spoken word in text form. The onus has pretty much always been on the individual to ensure they are being professional. I definitely think something is fishy here. It may very well be that Github has some serious issues, but the flip side of that coin (and Occam's razor) is that she sent out some rude emails and was fired.

faizmokhtar 9y ago

How is it sexism when the one who reported her and the manager herself is a female employee?

ivraatiems 9y ago
It's completely possible for a woman to behave in a sexist way towards another woman. There's an argument about whether one can be sexist against men (or racist against white people, etc.) that has to do with how the terms are defined, but I don't think that applies here.
- faizmokhtar 9y ago
  I see, I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.
btym 9y ago
Good question. It's called "internalized sexism". Not too uncommon in male-dominated workplaces.

rndmwlk 9y ago

>I think it is possible that there is some sexism here in that I'm not confident a male employee at Github would ever be challenged over failing this communication standard. What leads you to this conclusion? Sexism may have been at play, or she may have been rude to the wrong person (or perceived as rude). I don't think it is appropriate to draw broad conclusions with only one side of a story and zero evidence. > Also, I have never, ever heard of a PIP being used as anything other than a strategy for building a case for firing someone. Agreed on this point, as soon as she had a phone call with manager + HR they had already decided to fire her.

ivraatiems 9y ago
> Sexism may have been at play, or she may have been rude to the wrong person (or perceived as rude). I don't think it is appropriate to draw broad conclusions with only one side of a story and zero evidence. It comes back to that implicit expectation. Something I've been bringing up a lot in this thread as I read the comments throughout it is that whether we consider somebody rude or not seems to depend a lot on a) who they are, and b) whether we agree with them. We are more charitable to people who are more like us and whose ideas we find more correct. We're all human, so that's part of life. However, as an organization, Github can and should do better than that, and I think here that it did not. The sexism here, if it exists, is implicit in the way problems with this person were handled and in the expectations (mostly unwritten, at least at first) about how she'd behave.
- rndmwlk 9y ago
  >However, as an organization, Github can and should do better than that, and I think here that it did not. Consider if the situations were reversed. What if some white male engineer was simply being terse in an email to her. Might she attribute it to rudeness, sexism, or transphobia? If the company fired the engineer would you be arguing that she should be a bit more charitable in her interpretations? It can be very hard to capture the subtleties of spoken word in text form. The onus has pretty much always been on the individual to ensure they are being professional. I definitely think something is fishy here. It may very well be that Github has some serious issues, but the flip side of that coin (and Occam's razor) is that she sent out some rude emails and was fired.