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I haven't downvoted you but... "informed" is a tricky beast. Many people, but especially white men, especially engineers, think that they're qualified to commen

I haven't downvoted you but... "informed" is a tricky beast. Many people, but especially white men, especially engineers, think that they're qualified to comment on fields where they are a novice. (see Dunning-Kruger and others) In the field of discrimination, women and minorities are statistically more experienced; so on the whole you'd expect them to hold more informed opinions than white men. At the best of times telling anyone to "piss off" would be poorly advised, but especially so when the people so dismissed are likely better informed.

mindcrime 9y ago
In the field of discrimination, women and minorities are statistically more experienced; so on the whole you'd expect them to hold more informed opinions than white men. Maybe so, but I think it would be a mistake to understate the extent to which white men can experience discrimination. That is, there are far more parameters on which one can discriminate than just gender and ethnicity. For example, you could be a white man who is short. Or fat. Or short and fat. Or an atheist. Or who speaks with a Southern accent. Or a short, fat, atheist who speaks with a Southern accent. The point is, everybody experiences at least some discrimination. As such, Caveman_Coder's position is understandable, even if his language could have been a little less inflammatory.
- richmarr 9y ago
  Yes, you could in theory be disciminated against for your shortness, or fatness, or mirth, or fashion sense, opinion, or eyebrow girth. However... Have you ever been held captive & forced into labour on the basis of your atheism? Has your father ever been told you deserved no democratic vote because of your weight? Have you ever told you weren't allowed to marry someone else because of your height? Have you ever been held in an internment camp because of an intellectual opinion? Have you ever been restricted to a particular school, or public toilet, because of your accent? Maybe you see why comparing those characteristics with race/gender/orientation might not be appropriate.
  - mindcrime 9y ago
    I'm not "comparing" anything. Simply pointing out that non-white / non-male individuals don't have a monopoly on experiencing discrimination. Nothing you said above contradicts that in any way. I'm not saying that certain group don't experience more or even more severe discrimination. But this narrative that seems so prevalent today, the whole "you can't know anything about discrimination if you're a white male, and by the way, you white males are the root of all evil" is not supported. And FWIW, I did not down-vote you. In fact, have a corrective up-vote on me.
    - richmarr 9y ago
      You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I made that prompted you to reply; I haven't yet seen a criticism of that point but we can discuss it if you like. Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. The net effect of this type of comment is to minimise the more severe discrimination experienced by women and minorities. To diminish the power of their experience. So, to sum up; you replied to me to argue against a straw man, with the effect (conscious or not) of minimising the discrimination suffered by women and minorities. My best guess is that you feel guilt by association, possibly insecurity. You're fed up of feeling that and are pushing back in order to feel better. It's understandable, it's natural. I've got two points to make here that might help: (1) There are other ways to make yourself feel better. Listening to people & helping is a good one. Reframe yourself as someone helping solve the problem, rather than someone trying to diminish the problem. (2) Society is not a zero sum game. Raising up women and minorities does not mean knocking down men, even though sometimes it might feel that way. Hope that helps. Thanks for the up-vote, right back at you.
      - 9y ago

mindcrime 9y ago

In the field of discrimination, women and minorities are statistically more experienced; so on the whole you'd expect them to hold more informed opinions than white men. Maybe so, but I think it would be a mistake to understate the extent to which white men can experience discrimination. That is, there are far more parameters on which one can discriminate than just gender and ethnicity. For example, you could be a white man who is short. Or fat. Or short and fat. Or an atheist. Or who speaks with a Southern accent. Or a short, fat, atheist who speaks with a Southern accent. The point is, everybody experiences at least some discrimination. As such, Caveman_Coder's position is understandable, even if his language could have been a little less inflammatory.

richmarr 9y ago
Yes, you could in theory be disciminated against for your shortness, or fatness, or mirth, or fashion sense, opinion, or eyebrow girth. However... Have you ever been held captive & forced into labour on the basis of your atheism? Has your father ever been told you deserved no democratic vote because of your weight? Have you ever told you weren't allowed to marry someone else because of your height? Have you ever been held in an internment camp because of an intellectual opinion? Have you ever been restricted to a particular school, or public toilet, because of your accent? Maybe you see why comparing those characteristics with race/gender/orientation might not be appropriate.
- mindcrime 9y ago
  I'm not "comparing" anything. Simply pointing out that non-white / non-male individuals don't have a monopoly on experiencing discrimination. Nothing you said above contradicts that in any way. I'm not saying that certain group don't experience more or even more severe discrimination. But this narrative that seems so prevalent today, the whole "you can't know anything about discrimination if you're a white male, and by the way, you white males are the root of all evil" is not supported. And FWIW, I did not down-vote you. In fact, have a corrective up-vote on me.
  - richmarr 9y ago
    You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I made that prompted you to reply; I haven't yet seen a criticism of that point but we can discuss it if you like. Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. The net effect of this type of comment is to minimise the more severe discrimination experienced by women and minorities. To diminish the power of their experience. So, to sum up; you replied to me to argue against a straw man, with the effect (conscious or not) of minimising the discrimination suffered by women and minorities. My best guess is that you feel guilt by association, possibly insecurity. You're fed up of feeling that and are pushing back in order to feel better. It's understandable, it's natural. I've got two points to make here that might help: (1) There are other ways to make yourself feel better. Listening to people & helping is a good one. Reframe yourself as someone helping solve the problem, rather than someone trying to diminish the problem. (2) Society is not a zero sum game. Raising up women and minorities does not mean knocking down men, even though sometimes it might feel that way. Hope that helps. Thanks for the up-vote, right back at you.
    - 9y ago