4 ms·

Absolutely. People are rarely willing to talk about class in these discussions, but the reality is that not only have we created an industry with a gender imbal

Absolutely. People are rarely willing to talk about class in these discussions, but the reality is that not only have we created an industry with a gender imbalance, we've created an industry with a culture that prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) over everything else. Thus you have 'casual' workplaces with games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc in which some people feel comfortable and others feel thoroughly excluded from.

lmm 9y ago
My experience is exactly the opposite - "professional" workplaces are all about middle/upper-class values of dress/speech/behaviour and only comfortable for those with a middle/upper-class cultural/educational background, while the SV-casual workplace is a lot more welcoming for those of us from working/lower-middle class.
- sotojuan 9y ago
  There are bad professional places and good professional places - law and finance and rife with the things you describe. However, my "enterprise .NET software" experience was not bad. I just wore a button up, pants, and leather shoes and no one cared about my class background. If anything, SV tech is commonly full of (and targets as consumers) out-of-touch-with-working-class urban upper middle class people.
- throwanem 9y ago
  I've found the opposite to be true. Perhaps you have assimilated more effectively than I.
zzalpha 9y ago
we've created an industry with a culture that prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) over everything else. Thus you have 'casual' workplaces with games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc in which some people feel comfortable and others feel thoroughly excluded from. I disagree. Speaking as someone in that group, I would argue that those things are most valued by freshly minted graduates who've been in the industry for 5 years or less, with few if any commitments outside of work. i.e., the folks the tech industry exploits by convincing them to work 60-80 hours a week until they burn out. Heck, Google et al even refer to their facilities as "campuses" to appeal to that demographic. That said, I agree, Silicon Valley has created a culture in that region that values one thing: male youth. It's why sexual and age discrimination are such a problem in the industry in general, and in that region in particular. It even gave birth to the concept of the "brogrammer", which is the ultimate expression of this ideal.
Chris2048 9y ago
> prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) > games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc Do only men like those things? I though beer/alcohol was western thing. Games consoles a dev/techy/nerd thing. You also cherry picked a bit - these places might also have table football, is that a gendered activity too? These things might be considered "young", "trendy" incentives, but saying they represent "male values" is something in need of more explanation.

lmm 9y ago

My experience is exactly the opposite - "professional" workplaces are all about middle/upper-class values of dress/speech/behaviour and only comfortable for those with a middle/upper-class cultural/educational background, while the SV-casual workplace is a lot more welcoming for those of us from working/lower-middle class.

sotojuan 9y ago
There are bad professional places and good professional places - law and finance and rife with the things you describe. However, my "enterprise .NET software" experience was not bad. I just wore a button up, pants, and leather shoes and no one cared about my class background. If anything, SV tech is commonly full of (and targets as consumers) out-of-touch-with-working-class urban upper middle class people.
throwanem 9y ago
I've found the opposite to be true. Perhaps you have assimilated more effectively than I.

zzalpha 9y ago

we've created an industry with a culture that prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) over everything else. Thus you have 'casual' workplaces with games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc in which some people feel comfortable and others feel thoroughly excluded from. I disagree. Speaking as someone in that group, I would argue that those things are most valued by freshly minted graduates who've been in the industry for 5 years or less, with few if any commitments outside of work. i.e., the folks the tech industry exploits by convincing them to work 60-80 hours a week until they burn out. Heck, Google et al even refer to their facilities as "campuses" to appeal to that demographic. That said, I agree, Silicon Valley has created a culture in that region that values one thing: male youth. It's why sexual and age discrimination are such a problem in the industry in general, and in that region in particular. It even gave birth to the concept of the "brogrammer", which is the ultimate expression of this ideal.

Chris2048 9y ago

> prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) > games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc Do only men like those things? I though beer/alcohol was western thing. Games consoles a dev/techy/nerd thing. You also cherry picked a bit - these places might also have table football, is that a gendered activity too? These things might be considered "young", "trendy" incentives, but saying they represent "male values" is something in need of more explanation.