8 ms·

> I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. I learned this lesson a long time ago from the role models in my life that ended up getting bur

> I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. I learned this lesson a long time ago from the role models in my life that ended up getting burned because of having a differing viewpoint from whatever societal winds were blowing. I, and I realize probably cynically, now only elect to share, post, tweet, or whatnot whatever only can positively benefit my "brand". Sometimes I have to act like my own PR person, because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Working in foodservice for 8 years before switching to developer taught me if something you say doesn't offend or piss someone off, you just haven't ran into the right person yet.

icebraining 9y ago
That's my favorite quote from one my favorite characters of Red Mars: “It was a mistake to speak one's mind at any time, unless it perfectly matched your political purpose; and it never did.”
- djsumdog 9y ago
  Which character was that? John? Frank? Man I loved that series.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Frank. Coincidentally, he was reflecting on having spoken up about the treatment of women (in a certain community).
  - kfk 9y ago
    Frank, book 1, after a rant on women condition in muslim culture I believe
RUG3Y 9y ago
I'm with you but I pretty much opted out of social media entirely. If I do participate, it's generally for the purpose of keeping in touch with someone or watching a band's tour schedule. Sharing opinions is just not "safe" anymore.
- booleandilemma 9y ago
  Sharing opinions is just not "safe" anymore Free speech is dead.
  - problems 9y ago
    Not dead - you can speak your mind - just you pay a social price to do so. Free speech, even in the most libertarian concept I have doesn't prevent other people's right to criticize your speech - in fact, I'd say it encourages just that. Speak out against stuff you don't like rather than censoring it. Ultimately it's an effect of large, diverse communities and deep political divisions. If you want to have political discussions in such public places without suffering a reputation hit, the only way to do so is under a pseudonym - and you're free to do that on many sites.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Just because something is legal doesn't mean we're at liberty to do it. People mistake society for government and vice versa.
      - problems 9y ago
        I'd argue you're still at liberty to do it - you just have to be willing to accept any social prices associated with it. Other people enjoy the same liberties that you do, they have every right to think and say whatever they will about you due to your speech. Of course, this is really only a significant issue on a public forum, on which you can post pseudonymously and still gain any benefits of discussion without paying any significant toll. Some people view this as a negative and want to ban this kind of commenting - I love it, it means you can experiment with different views, make arguments you might not want to make in real life and see what sticks with you.
        halomru 9y ago
        >Id argue you're still at liberty to do it - you just have to be willing to accept any social prices associated with it. You can say that about almost anything. I'm at liberty to murder my neighbor, I just have to accept the price.
EGreg 9y ago
Here is the thing. You can have private opinions but when you express them publicly, the larger the audience the larger the chance that someone can totally misinterpret / take out of context / take IN context but write a diatribe against / etc. what you say. It could be someone who is outraged or someone who actually uses your words to further their ideological agenda against those who are outraged. In short, the more people see what you say, the more chances that it can run away from under you and distract from your brand and its focus. That is why Coke executives don't just tweet their personal views on topics, etc. and why politicians stay on message. Anything you say publicly can and may be used against YOUR GOALS. And maybe against your character. "Give me six lines written by the most honest man, and I will find something there to hang him. As quoted in Champlain's Dream‎ (2008) by David Hackett Fischer" And with AI you can probably quote mine anyone like Richelou. Sometimes, like Trump, the controversy helps attract media attention and you can find a core audience who flocks to you. Then you become a polarizing figure. If that's your way of getting famous, then the price you pay is people quote mining what you say later and you having to filter out people who are constantly lining up to debate you and take you down. Trump has been able to sidestep the parsing of his words by not standing for anything and being so willing to change with the wind and just say so much random stuff, while at the same time saying what enough people want to hear that he totally polarized the country.
- ams6110 9y ago
  My personal view is that Trump is deliberately trolling the media, and they are taking the bait every time. There's also a "they can dish it out but can't take it" element to it.
  - EGreg 9y ago
    I've watched him and I think it is just too hard for him to control himself. He's got the political correctness and factual accuracy version of dyslexia.
    - WalterSear 9y ago
      IMHO, it's both. He can't help himself, and it works, so he keeps doing it. There's a reason his staff let him twitter.
tertius 9y ago
This is called self-censorship. On the one hand it is probably good for your "brand" on the other hand, authenticity is a key factor in having a strong brand. No-win situation...
- koolba 9y ago
  > On the one hand it is probably good for your "brand" on the other hand, authenticity is a key factor in having a strong brand. That's the difference between marketing and advertising. Done well, your audience won't even realize you're marketing to them. If you do the public face just right, people will think you authentically share those same views in private.
Nadya 9y ago
This is why I only use pseudonyms online and don't tie together my "real life" with my "life online". I think it's foolish to tie the two together if you ever want to express your personal opinions. Just because they're "popular now" or aren't causing harm in the now doesn't mean that will hold true 10 years from now, keeping in mind that "the internet never forgets".
- mirimir 9y ago
  Indeed! I have a professional life, using my real name, with virtually no public exposure. I have a personal life as well, using social media, but locked down to close family and friends. And I've had numerous "hobby lives", Mirimir being one of the most recent and active, isolated through VPN services and Tor.
Norfair 9y ago
'If something you say doesn't offend or piss someone off, you just haven't ran into the right person yet' Can I quote you on that?
- Dimi9909 9y ago
  agree
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
> because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Even right now, writing on a niche message board using a fake name, I'm hesitant to voice my honest opinions about anything related to race or gender or other topic like that. it's like there's an army of internet people waiting for you to mess up and will punish you with controversy and/or honestly try and get you fired.
- andrewmutz 9y ago
  I agree 100%. There is no serious dialog on complex issues like this, because if something you say gets misunderstood, your career is in jeopardy.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Dove 9y ago
    That's a great loss. Freedom and rights are wonderful things. But as I see them used to justify censorship, I can't help but think that's exactly what's happening: they're being used. I don't know about you, but I rather resent being used, and I won't have it. We need our serious dialogue. We are undertaking a revolutionary project, realigning the way the sexes relate. The changes of the last century have been enormous. It is arrogance and folly to think that the monotone wisdom of one political perspective is all we need to guide us through such a storm. We need diversity and respect for opposing opinions. We need to gather wisdom from all experiences and backgrounds, and build something excellent.
- scruple 9y ago
  Absolutely. 9/10 of the comments that I write on HN never see the light of day. And not just on HN, but pretty much every social media platform I engage with. I don't feel like I have anything particularly controversial, inflammatory, or offensive to say. But, I so strongly don't want to be perceived that way that I just opt-out most of the time.
  - 9y ago
spinlock 9y ago
I don't want to make this a Trump thing ... but I"m gonna. I didn't like that he tweeted the CNN clothesline but I just read their response which was doxing and extorting a bs apology from the creator. It shows that the problem is worse than you've pointed out. Even if you're relatively anonymous, you'll be guilty by association if someone uses your words and amplifies them in a way you never could.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  Well, the creator of the CNN clothesline wasn't merely "guilty by association" given he had a clear history of posting hate speech and creating fairly obviously bigoted content.
johnsonjo 9y ago
> if something you say doesn't offend or piss someone off, you just haven't ran into the right person yet. Agreed. No matter how calculated you are chances are someone is going to be angry or atleast peeved by you having an opinion. I believe that everyone has a right to voicing their opinion. By this I mean that people should have a chance to be heard, but I believe the backlash that comes from voicing an opinion is sometimes a necessary evil and it too should not be completely silenced. There's a healthy balance in the war of words. I personally feel despite the backlash if you feel strongly about something that you feel is right then speak out about it, and have a voice. Some words need to be heard and expressed. People do often have strong biases, but your words can hold power to sway someone to either side. One important thing to note about truly making a debate a learning experience is just because the person is on the other side of the debate doesn't mean you can't learn some principle or truth from them. You can almost always learn or see some shred of truth from any argument no matter how fallacious, wrong, or stupid it may seem. Our job as conversationalists should be to try to separate the fact from the fiction. As words are expressed and understood people come to know where their misconceptions lie. They start aligning their perceptions with what they truly feel is right. I love hacker news the community often does not take a single side, and the views on both sides are heard. This helps me decide where I should stand on the issue. So I just have to say thank you to those who give constructive thoughts that help guide the conversation.

icebraining 9y ago

That's my favorite quote from one my favorite characters of Red Mars: “It was a mistake to speak one's mind at any time, unless it perfectly matched your political purpose; and it never did.”

djsumdog 9y ago
Which character was that? John? Frank? Man I loved that series.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Frank. Coincidentally, he was reflecting on having spoken up about the treatment of women (in a certain community).
- kfk 9y ago
  Frank, book 1, after a rant on women condition in muslim culture I believe

RUG3Y 9y ago

I'm with you but I pretty much opted out of social media entirely. If I do participate, it's generally for the purpose of keeping in touch with someone or watching a band's tour schedule. Sharing opinions is just not "safe" anymore.

booleandilemma 9y ago
Sharing opinions is just not "safe" anymore Free speech is dead.
- problems 9y ago
  Not dead - you can speak your mind - just you pay a social price to do so. Free speech, even in the most libertarian concept I have doesn't prevent other people's right to criticize your speech - in fact, I'd say it encourages just that. Speak out against stuff you don't like rather than censoring it. Ultimately it's an effect of large, diverse communities and deep political divisions. If you want to have political discussions in such public places without suffering a reputation hit, the only way to do so is under a pseudonym - and you're free to do that on many sites.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Just because something is legal doesn't mean we're at liberty to do it. People mistake society for government and vice versa.
    - problems 9y ago
      I'd argue you're still at liberty to do it - you just have to be willing to accept any social prices associated with it. Other people enjoy the same liberties that you do, they have every right to think and say whatever they will about you due to your speech. Of course, this is really only a significant issue on a public forum, on which you can post pseudonymously and still gain any benefits of discussion without paying any significant toll. Some people view this as a negative and want to ban this kind of commenting - I love it, it means you can experiment with different views, make arguments you might not want to make in real life and see what sticks with you.
      - halomru 9y ago
        >Id argue you're still at liberty to do it - you just have to be willing to accept any social prices associated with it. You can say that about almost anything. I'm at liberty to murder my neighbor, I just have to accept the price.

EGreg 9y ago

Here is the thing. You can have private opinions but when you express them publicly, the larger the audience the larger the chance that someone can totally misinterpret / take out of context / take IN context but write a diatribe against / etc. what you say. It could be someone who is outraged or someone who actually uses your words to further their ideological agenda against those who are outraged. In short, the more people see what you say, the more chances that it can run away from under you and distract from your brand and its focus. That is why Coke executives don't just tweet their personal views on topics, etc. and why politicians stay on message. Anything you say publicly can and may be used against YOUR GOALS. And maybe against your character. "Give me six lines written by the most honest man, and I will find something there to hang him. As quoted in Champlain's Dream‎ (2008) by David Hackett Fischer" And with AI you can probably quote mine anyone like Richelou. Sometimes, like Trump, the controversy helps attract media attention and you can find a core audience who flocks to you. Then you become a polarizing figure. If that's your way of getting famous, then the price you pay is people quote mining what you say later and you having to filter out people who are constantly lining up to debate you and take you down. Trump has been able to sidestep the parsing of his words by not standing for anything and being so willing to change with the wind and just say so much random stuff, while at the same time saying what enough people want to hear that he totally polarized the country.

ams6110 9y ago
My personal view is that Trump is deliberately trolling the media, and they are taking the bait every time. There's also a "they can dish it out but can't take it" element to it.
- EGreg 9y ago
  I've watched him and I think it is just too hard for him to control himself. He's got the political correctness and factual accuracy version of dyslexia.
  - WalterSear 9y ago
    IMHO, it's both. He can't help himself, and it works, so he keeps doing it. There's a reason his staff let him twitter.

tertius 9y ago

This is called self-censorship. On the one hand it is probably good for your "brand" on the other hand, authenticity is a key factor in having a strong brand. No-win situation...

koolba 9y ago
> On the one hand it is probably good for your "brand" on the other hand, authenticity is a key factor in having a strong brand. That's the difference between marketing and advertising. Done well, your audience won't even realize you're marketing to them. If you do the public face just right, people will think you authentically share those same views in private.

Nadya 9y ago

This is why I only use pseudonyms online and don't tie together my "real life" with my "life online". I think it's foolish to tie the two together if you ever want to express your personal opinions. Just because they're "popular now" or aren't causing harm in the now doesn't mean that will hold true 10 years from now, keeping in mind that "the internet never forgets".

mirimir 9y ago
Indeed! I have a professional life, using my real name, with virtually no public exposure. I have a personal life as well, using social media, but locked down to close family and friends. And I've had numerous "hobby lives", Mirimir being one of the most recent and active, isolated through VPN services and Tor.

Norfair 9y ago

'If something you say doesn't offend or piss someone off, you just haven't ran into the right person yet' Can I quote you on that?

Dimi9909 9y ago
agree

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

> because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Even right now, writing on a niche message board using a fake name, I'm hesitant to voice my honest opinions about anything related to race or gender or other topic like that. it's like there's an army of internet people waiting for you to mess up and will punish you with controversy and/or honestly try and get you fired.

andrewmutz 9y ago
I agree 100%. There is no serious dialog on complex issues like this, because if something you say gets misunderstood, your career is in jeopardy.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Dove 9y ago
  That's a great loss. Freedom and rights are wonderful things. But as I see them used to justify censorship, I can't help but think that's exactly what's happening: they're being used. I don't know about you, but I rather resent being used, and I won't have it. We need our serious dialogue. We are undertaking a revolutionary project, realigning the way the sexes relate. The changes of the last century have been enormous. It is arrogance and folly to think that the monotone wisdom of one political perspective is all we need to guide us through such a storm. We need diversity and respect for opposing opinions. We need to gather wisdom from all experiences and backgrounds, and build something excellent.
scruple 9y ago
Absolutely. 9/10 of the comments that I write on HN never see the light of day. And not just on HN, but pretty much every social media platform I engage with. I don't feel like I have anything particularly controversial, inflammatory, or offensive to say. But, I so strongly don't want to be perceived that way that I just opt-out most of the time.
- 9y ago

spinlock 9y ago

I don't want to make this a Trump thing ... but I"m gonna. I didn't like that he tweeted the CNN clothesline but I just read their response which was doxing and extorting a bs apology from the creator. It shows that the problem is worse than you've pointed out. Even if you're relatively anonymous, you'll be guilty by association if someone uses your words and amplifies them in a way you never could.

zimpenfish 9y ago
Well, the creator of the CNN clothesline wasn't merely "guilty by association" given he had a clear history of posting hate speech and creating fairly obviously bigoted content.

johnsonjo 9y ago

> if something you say doesn't offend or piss someone off, you just haven't ran into the right person yet. Agreed. No matter how calculated you are chances are someone is going to be angry or atleast peeved by you having an opinion. I believe that everyone has a right to voicing their opinion. By this I mean that people should have a chance to be heard, but I believe the backlash that comes from voicing an opinion is sometimes a necessary evil and it too should not be completely silenced. There's a healthy balance in the war of words. I personally feel despite the backlash if you feel strongly about something that you feel is right then speak out about it, and have a voice. Some words need to be heard and expressed. People do often have strong biases, but your words can hold power to sway someone to either side. One important thing to note about truly making a debate a learning experience is just because the person is on the other side of the debate doesn't mean you can't learn some principle or truth from them. You can almost always learn or see some shred of truth from any argument no matter how fallacious, wrong, or stupid it may seem. Our job as conversationalists should be to try to separate the fact from the fiction. As words are expressed and understood people come to know where their misconceptions lie. They start aligning their perceptions with what they truly feel is right. I love hacker news the community often does not take a single side, and the views on both sides are heard. This helps me decide where I should stand on the issue. So I just have to say thank you to those who give constructive thoughts that help guide the conversation.