4 ms·

Unpopular opinion: I think when you're in a minority and you are not rising to the top as fast as you expect, you use your minority as leverage to propel yours

by buf 9y ago

Unpopular opinion: I think when you're in a minority and you are not rising to the top as fast as you expect, you use your minority as leverage to propel yourself. I am also in a minority. I've often felt cheated that my career isn't Musk-esque. And sometimes I even ask the question, "Am I being held back because I'm [in my minority]?" Then I snap back to reality. It's not the minority that holds you back. It's a class system.

rootlocus 9y ago
If you think it's the class system that's holding you back from being Elon Musk, you're the one holding yourself back.
- dang 9y ago
  That's not what buf said. On HN, please be charitable when interpreting others, in the sense of responding to the strongest plausible interpretation of their meaning. It makes discussions more interesting and flamewars less likely.
  - rootlocus 9y ago
    Perhaps you can find a more charitable interpretation for my comment? If it's not what he said, then it doesn't apply to him. But if it does, it is my personal opinion that people can free themselves of the mindset that how others see them affects what they can or can not do.
    - dang 9y ago
      If I were going to discuss the issue with you, I would! (or at least I hope I would). But my comments in threads like this are limited to the very different issue of what builds vs. destroys substantive conversation on HN.
- realusername 9y ago
  The class system is obviously holding everyone back, that's why you have poor neighbourhoods and poor cities instead of just poor individuals. And every statistic you see tends to show the class system. Elon Musk is just a statistical error and even then wasn't even coming from a poor family in the first place.
  - urethrafranklin 9y ago
    It's fair to say he came from a pretty upper class background. Wealthy/famous parents, went to the best schools, started an early web company with his dad's money, became part of paypal mafia.
kybernetikos 9y ago
Almost everyone has about a million things holding them back. The problem is that for any specific individual, focussing on the things holding them back is usually counter productive. For society as a whole, spotting some of those things and trying to remove them can be very beneficial. Telling yourself that you're a victim of other peoples bigotry even if true tends to lead to paranoid, non-growth mindset attitudes when to actually succeed you'd be better served by an open, growth attitude.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  The problem is that for any specific individual, focussing on the things holding them back is usually counter productive. So what is the alternative? To sit back and hope the problem solves itself? Yes, obviously using minority status as a mental excuse for under-performing is a bad strategy. But I'd claim it's no better to simply ignore the issue. In reality, for a person in a minority group, success is a function of personal achievement and minority status. That's just life. To deny that is, to me, simply unrealistic. To use a somewhat incendiary example, this idea is encapsulated in the concept of "white privilege".
  - kybernetikos 9y ago
    I realise that by starting by saying that everyone is held back by something I probably sound dismissive to the people who have to contend with dramatically more than others who are held back by less. I apologise for that. Almost everyone can find factors outside themselves that make their lives harder but some are much more serious and pervasive than others. As to the alternative? I think that attempting to achieve in your area and simultaneously trying to fix society are big asks. I've noticed some minority high achievers seem to have deluded themselves into not believing that they have been much discriminated against when they clearly have. I think that that is a strategy that can help some people (although they will sometimes then say unhelpful things in the context of a wider discussion). This self delusion is, I believe, part of their maintaining the non paranoid outlook and the growth mindset that has helped them achieve what they have. > success is a function of personal achievement and minority status. That's just life. To deny that is, to me, simply unrealistic. I'm explicitly not denying this, I'm acknowledging it and I want society as a whole and companies and other groups of people to spot this and try to fix it. What I am saying, based on personal observation is that being on the look out for these kinds of discrimination is a strategy that may not be in the interests of specific individuals in terms of maximising their personal achievement.
unit91 9y ago
Cheated by whom?
zzalpha 9y ago
It's not the minority that holds you back. It's a class system. Well, I'd counter that and claim it's actually both, and the former frequently contributes to the latter.
- dang 9y ago
  Your comments are beginning to make a habit of being uncivil. Would you please fix that? In particular, please edit the gratuitous provocations like "Hate to break it to you" and "Huh?" out of your comments here. Those things are (minor) violations of HN's civility rule in any thread, but when it comes to flamewar-prone topics like this one they're particularly harmful.
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    Fair point. I'll do that right now. Thanks for the feedback!
  - adrienne 9y ago
    I have zero idea how you can say these things to one of the most civil people on here who isn't expressing truly odious ideas, and still believe in your heart that your moderation is content-neutral.
colept 9y ago
I'm glad this was said because I think there's a spotlight on "women in tech" right now and all that's being said is how hard it is to be a woman. Yes there is a glass ceiling in tech for women but consider how easy it is for women to get to that ceiling versus being a man. Given the previous study that said companies more likely hire men when names are removed from an application - it makes me curious about what it would be like to be a woman in tech. Would I get more interviews? Would my blog posts and tweets get shared more because women get better exposition in the developer communities? Women have to try hard to break that ceiling, but men have to try harder to get there. Being in a minority puts you in a spotlight - people pay attention to you. That doesn't make discrimination or sexual harassment okay and I'm not saying women should count their chickens but I can't help but feel numb to some of the noise that surrounds this issue.

by buf 9y ago

rootlocus 9y ago

If you think it's the class system that's holding you back from being Elon Musk, you're the one holding yourself back.

dang 9y ago
That's not what buf said. On HN, please be charitable when interpreting others, in the sense of responding to the strongest plausible interpretation of their meaning. It makes discussions more interesting and flamewars less likely.
- rootlocus 9y ago
  Perhaps you can find a more charitable interpretation for my comment? If it's not what he said, then it doesn't apply to him. But if it does, it is my personal opinion that people can free themselves of the mindset that how others see them affects what they can or can not do.
  - dang 9y ago
    If I were going to discuss the issue with you, I would! (or at least I hope I would). But my comments in threads like this are limited to the very different issue of what builds vs. destroys substantive conversation on HN.
realusername 9y ago
The class system is obviously holding everyone back, that's why you have poor neighbourhoods and poor cities instead of just poor individuals. And every statistic you see tends to show the class system. Elon Musk is just a statistical error and even then wasn't even coming from a poor family in the first place.
- urethrafranklin 9y ago
  It's fair to say he came from a pretty upper class background. Wealthy/famous parents, went to the best schools, started an early web company with his dad's money, became part of paypal mafia.

kybernetikos 9y ago

Almost everyone has about a million things holding them back. The problem is that for any specific individual, focussing on the things holding them back is usually counter productive. For society as a whole, spotting some of those things and trying to remove them can be very beneficial. Telling yourself that you're a victim of other peoples bigotry even if true tends to lead to paranoid, non-growth mindset attitudes when to actually succeed you'd be better served by an open, growth attitude.

zzalpha 9y ago
The problem is that for any specific individual, focussing on the things holding them back is usually counter productive. So what is the alternative? To sit back and hope the problem solves itself? Yes, obviously using minority status as a mental excuse for under-performing is a bad strategy. But I'd claim it's no better to simply ignore the issue. In reality, for a person in a minority group, success is a function of personal achievement and minority status. That's just life. To deny that is, to me, simply unrealistic. To use a somewhat incendiary example, this idea is encapsulated in the concept of "white privilege".
- kybernetikos 9y ago
  I realise that by starting by saying that everyone is held back by something I probably sound dismissive to the people who have to contend with dramatically more than others who are held back by less. I apologise for that. Almost everyone can find factors outside themselves that make their lives harder but some are much more serious and pervasive than others. As to the alternative? I think that attempting to achieve in your area and simultaneously trying to fix society are big asks. I've noticed some minority high achievers seem to have deluded themselves into not believing that they have been much discriminated against when they clearly have. I think that that is a strategy that can help some people (although they will sometimes then say unhelpful things in the context of a wider discussion). This self delusion is, I believe, part of their maintaining the non paranoid outlook and the growth mindset that has helped them achieve what they have. > success is a function of personal achievement and minority status. That's just life. To deny that is, to me, simply unrealistic. I'm explicitly not denying this, I'm acknowledging it and I want society as a whole and companies and other groups of people to spot this and try to fix it. What I am saying, based on personal observation is that being on the look out for these kinds of discrimination is a strategy that may not be in the interests of specific individuals in terms of maximising their personal achievement.

unit91 9y ago

Cheated by whom?

zzalpha 9y ago

It's not the minority that holds you back. It's a class system. Well, I'd counter that and claim it's actually both, and the former frequently contributes to the latter.

dang 9y ago
Your comments are beginning to make a habit of being uncivil. Would you please fix that? In particular, please edit the gratuitous provocations like "Hate to break it to you" and "Huh?" out of your comments here. Those things are (minor) violations of HN's civility rule in any thread, but when it comes to flamewar-prone topics like this one they're particularly harmful.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  Fair point. I'll do that right now. Thanks for the feedback!
- adrienne 9y ago
  I have zero idea how you can say these things to one of the most civil people on here who isn't expressing truly odious ideas, and still believe in your heart that your moderation is content-neutral.

colept 9y ago

I'm glad this was said because I think there's a spotlight on "women in tech" right now and all that's being said is how hard it is to be a woman. Yes there is a glass ceiling in tech for women but consider how easy it is for women to get to that ceiling versus being a man. Given the previous study that said companies more likely hire men when names are removed from an application - it makes me curious about what it would be like to be a woman in tech. Would I get more interviews? Would my blog posts and tweets get shared more because women get better exposition in the developer communities? Women have to try hard to break that ceiling, but men have to try harder to get there. Being in a minority puts you in a spotlight - people pay attention to you. That doesn't make discrimination or sexual harassment okay and I'm not saying women should count their chickens but I can't help but feel numb to some of the noise that surrounds this issue.