16 ms·

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highligh

• treehau5 9y ago
  > I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. I learned this lesson a long time ago from the role models in my life that ended up getting burned because of having a differing viewpoint from whatever societal winds were blowing. I, and I realize probably cynically, now only elect to share, post, tweet, or whatnot whatever only can positively benefit my "brand". Sometimes I have to act like my own PR person, because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Working in foodservice for 8 years before switching to developer taught me if something you say doesn't offend or piss someone off, you just haven't ran into the right person yet.
  • icebraining 9y ago
    That's my favorite quote from one my favorite characters of Red Mars: “It was a mistake to speak one's mind at any time, unless it perfectly matched your political purpose; and it never did.”
    • djsumdog 9y ago
      Which character was that? John? Frank? Man I loved that series.
      • icebraining 9y ago
        Frank. Coincidentally, he was reflecting on having spoken up about the treatment of women (in a certain community).
      • kfk 9y ago
        Frank, book 1, after a rant on women condition in muslim culture I believe
  • RUG3Y 9y ago
    I'm with you but I pretty much opted out of social media entirely. If I do participate, it's generally for the purpose of keeping in touch with someone or watching a band's tour schedule. Sharing opinions is just not "safe" anymore.
    • booleandilemma 9y ago
      Sharing opinions is just not "safe" anymore Free speech is dead.
      • problems 9y ago
        Not dead - you can speak your mind - just you pay a social price to do so. Free speech, even in the most libertarian concept I have doesn't prevent other people's right to criticize your speech - in fact, I'd say it encourages just that. Speak out against stuff you don't like rather than censoring it. Ultimately it's an effect of large, diverse communities and deep political divisions. If you want to have political discussions in such public places without suffering a reputation hit, the only way to do so is under a pseudonym - and you're free to do that on many sites.
        • humanrebar 9y ago
          Just because something is legal doesn't mean we're at liberty to do it. People mistake society for government and vice versa.
          • problems 9y ago
            I'd argue you're still at liberty to do it - you just have to be willing to accept any social prices associated with it. Other people enjoy the same liberties that you do, they have every right to think and say whatever they will about you due to your speech. Of course, this is really only a significant issue on a public forum, on which you can post pseudonymously and still gain any benefits of discussion without paying any significant toll. Some people view this as a negative and want to ban this kind of commenting - I love it, it means you can experiment with different views, make arguments you might not want to make in real life and see what sticks with you.
  • EGreg 9y ago
    Here is the thing. You can have private opinions but when you express them publicly, the larger the audience the larger the chance that someone can totally misinterpret / take out of context / take IN context but write a diatribe against / etc. what you say. It could be someone who is outraged or someone who actually uses your words to further their ideological agenda against those who are outraged. In short, the more people see what you say, the more chances that it can run away from under you and distract from your brand and its focus. That is why Coke executives don't just tweet their personal views on topics, etc. and why politicians stay on message. Anything you say publicly can and may be used against YOUR GOALS. And maybe against your character. "Give me six lines written by the most honest man, and I will find something there to hang him. As quoted in Champlain's Dream‎ (2008) by David Hackett Fischer" And with AI you can probably quote mine anyone like Richelou. Sometimes, like Trump, the controversy helps attract media attention and you can find a core audience who flocks to you. Then you become a polarizing figure. If that's your way of getting famous, then the price you pay is people quote mining what you say later and you having to filter out people who are constantly lining up to debate you and take you down. Trump has been able to sidestep the parsing of his words by not standing for anything and being so willing to change with the wind and just say so much random stuff, while at the same time saying what enough people want to hear that he totally polarized the country.
    • ams6110 9y ago
      My personal view is that Trump is deliberately trolling the media, and they are taking the bait every time. There's also a "they can dish it out but can't take it" element to it.
      • EGreg 9y ago
        I've watched him and I think it is just too hard for him to control himself. He's got the political correctness and factual accuracy version of dyslexia.
        • WalterSear 9y ago
          IMHO, it's both. He can't help himself, and it works, so he keeps doing it. There's a reason his staff let him twitter.
  • tertius 9y ago
    This is called self-censorship. On the one hand it is probably good for your "brand" on the other hand, authenticity is a key factor in having a strong brand. No-win situation...
    • koolba 9y ago
      > On the one hand it is probably good for your "brand" on the other hand, authenticity is a key factor in having a strong brand. That's the difference between marketing and advertising. Done well, your audience won't even realize you're marketing to them. If you do the public face just right, people will think you authentically share those same views in private.
  • Nadya 9y ago
    This is why I only use pseudonyms online and don't tie together my "real life" with my "life online". I think it's foolish to tie the two together if you ever want to express your personal opinions. Just because they're "popular now" or aren't causing harm in the now doesn't mean that will hold true 10 years from now, keeping in mind that "the internet never forgets".
    • mirimir 9y ago
      Indeed! I have a professional life, using my real name, with virtually no public exposure. I have a personal life as well, using social media, but locked down to close family and friends. And I've had numerous "hobby lives", Mirimir being one of the most recent and active, isolated through VPN services and Tor.
  • Norfair 9y ago
    'If something you say doesn't offend or piss someone off, you just haven't ran into the right person yet' Can I quote you on that?
    • Dimi9909 9y ago
      agree
  • matt_wulfeck 9y ago
    > because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Even right now, writing on a niche message board using a fake name, I'm hesitant to voice my honest opinions about anything related to race or gender or other topic like that. it's like there's an army of internet people waiting for you to mess up and will punish you with controversy and/or honestly try and get you fired.
    • andrewmutz 9y ago
      I agree 100%. There is no serious dialog on complex issues like this, because if something you say gets misunderstood, your career is in jeopardy.
      • deleted 9y ago
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      • Dove 9y ago
        That's a great loss. Freedom and rights are wonderful things. But as I see them used to justify censorship, I can't help but think that's exactly what's happening: they're being used. I don't know about you, but I rather resent being used, and I won't have it. We need our serious dialogue. We are undertaking a revolutionary project, realigning the way the sexes relate. The changes of the last century have been enormous. It is arrogance and folly to think that the monotone wisdom of one political perspective is all we need to guide us through such a storm. We need diversity and respect for opposing opinions. We need to gather wisdom from all experiences and backgrounds, and build something excellent.
    • scruple 9y ago
      Absolutely. 9/10 of the comments that I write on HN never see the light of day. And not just on HN, but pretty much every social media platform I engage with. I don't feel like I have anything particularly controversial, inflammatory, or offensive to say. But, I so strongly don't want to be perceived that way that I just opt-out most of the time.
      • 9y ago
  • spinlock 9y ago
    I don't want to make this a Trump thing ... but I"m gonna. I didn't like that he tweeted the CNN clothesline but I just read their response which was doxing and extorting a bs apology from the creator. It shows that the problem is worse than you've pointed out. Even if you're relatively anonymous, you'll be guilty by association if someone uses your words and amplifies them in a way you never could.
    • zimpenfish 9y ago
      Well, the creator of the CNN clothesline wasn't merely "guilty by association" given he had a clear history of posting hate speech and creating fairly obviously bigoted content.
  • johnsonjo 9y ago
    > if something you say doesn't offend or piss someone off, you just haven't ran into the right person yet. Agreed. No matter how calculated you are chances are someone is going to be angry or atleast peeved by you having an opinion. I believe that everyone has a right to voicing their opinion. By this I mean that people should have a chance to be heard, but I believe the backlash that comes from voicing an opinion is sometimes a necessary evil and it too should not be completely silenced. There's a healthy balance in the war of words. I personally feel despite the backlash if you feel strongly about something that you feel is right then speak out about it, and have a voice. Some words need to be heard and expressed. People do often have strong biases, but your words can hold power to sway someone to either side. One important thing to note about truly making a debate a learning experience is just because the person is on the other side of the debate doesn't mean you can't learn some principle or truth from them. You can almost always learn or see some shred of truth from any argument no matter how fallacious, wrong, or stupid it may seem. Our job as conversationalists should be to try to separate the fact from the fiction. As words are expressed and understood people come to know where their misconceptions lie. They start aligning their perceptions with what they truly feel is right. I love hacker news the community often does not take a single side, and the views on both sides are heard. This helps me decide where I should stand on the issue. So I just have to say thank you to those who give constructive thoughts that help guide the conversation.
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• cle 9y ago
  People will always (and should) have differing opinions, don't let that stop you from forming your own opinion and then working to improve the situation.
• rectang 9y ago
  It's perfectly reasonable to have opinions, but to step back and listen, actively and thoughtfully.
• saiya-jin 9y ago
  I can't agree more - coming from former east-bloc european environment where women had to work same as men and there was no racism (simply because there were only white people for last 2000 years on this place), both of what you mention is distant issue (but clearly some other places are/were riddled with it). I already treat women as equal (actually more), same goes to my LBGT friends and colleagues, and same for all non-white people. But constant presence in media is making these topics so annoying to me, I wish more focus was dedicated to healthy lifestyle for example (probably being selfish here but that's my view, and view of people close to me too). Things like company-wide emails encouraging us to go to gay prides over weekend "where you can finally participate and show your hetero support" - god damn I work for banking corp with 130k employees. If I wanted to go there, I would be already going for last 10+ years. I show support to the cause by treating them as equal, because THEY ARE EQUAL, not treating them like disabled kids. Keep work emails about work, and let me do my own stuff in my own time.
  • Latty 9y ago
    "Only white people" doesn't mean "no racism". As an Englishman, let me assure you my ancestors managed racism against white Irish people extremely well, and - somewhat ironically - plenty of the less educated people around me today are extremely racist to eastern Europeans (who are supposedly "takin' er jerbs"). Your point is "I don't do racist things, therefore there isn't a problem", which is just not true - there are still huge problems for tons of people with racism, sexism and other bigotry, and just because you don't see it or notice it doesn't make it not a problem. You got annoyed? I'm sure some non-racists were annoyed when all anyone could talk about was how bad slavery was. If you don't care about the issue, feel free to ignore it - but saying that people are imposing on you by caring is just unreasonable.
    • ams6110 9y ago
      Is Irish a race? I'm thinking you mean discrimination.
      • Latty 9y ago
• kelukelugames 9y ago
  An episode of Netflix's Dear White People focuses on the white guy. Might express some of the same thoughts and feelings.
• hoosieree 9y ago
  I deeply understand this sentiment, especially the "what can/should I do?" aspect, but I think "watching from the sidelines" is a mistake. If we do nothing then the status quo will tend toward more segregation, not less. Some simple things I do to try to make things better in my workplace: With others: * actually listen * never interrupt * make sure criticism is constructive * in a shared codebase, use the lightest possible touch (avoid aesthetic refactoring) With myself: * acknowledge my own privileges/biases, and be aware of the fact that simply what I look like/how I speak etc. can affect other people * be open to the possibility that my own opinions may not be immutable objective truths (this is hard)
  • mistermann 9y ago
    > make sure criticism is constructive My new motto (if I can pull it off), is to never criticize, ever. If I see a project on an obvious downward trajectory, rather than pointing out the blatantly obvious things that could turn it around, I am going to smile and repeat the same nonsense feel good crap my coworkers do as if everything is just fine, and watch it crash and burn. And then in my next interview, I will declare it a smashing success! In my experience, this is literally the recipe for success in modern times. I should note, these observations are based on working in large enterprises where failure of an individual project can be absorbed, as opposed to a smaller shop where success actually matters.
  • humanrebar 9y ago
    > acknowledge my own privileges/biases I'm fine with acknowledging my shortcomings. I think it shows a healthy humility and a kind of leadership that is really lacking these days. But I find the language of privilege to be a certain kind of virtue signalling. I don't ascribe to the underlying philosophy, so I would be misleading my audience to talk about my "privileges". > the fact that simply what I look like/how I speak etc. can affect other people That can describe really bad, really racist outcomes. It's not fair, at least in the Rawlsian sense, to make people responsible for how others react to who they are.
• skybrian 9y ago
  We all do it, but sharing opinions tends not to be all that useful anyway. From someone else's point of view it's just another stranger's opinion on the Internet. Better to ask questions, share links, and tell stories based on personal experience if you have any.
• Pica_soO 9y ago
  Its almost like a industry upon itself, being busy being insulted and helping to overcome those insults by selling seminars, stickers and absolution. I almost feel sorry for anyone who is to deal with either side. Harassment is one thing, but if that industry is the only help you can turn too- that is worser. Cause this side has no interest in resolving the core Issue (it literaly lives from it) and doesn't have a interest in a good outcome for the harassed either. Still, if i think back on the woman i tutored in the freshman C-class - and later in there careers - any creep in power molesting those: Its good that this industry exists, to apply pressure too keep standards. For every woman in tech, should be able to walk, live and write like maria.
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• lentil_soup 9y ago
  Well, I think that's ok. As fellow white male, our opinion is not really what matters here. It's not really about us. We are involved, we try to help each other out and whatnot, but in the end it's ok to just be there and listen for once.
• danesparza 9y ago
  Make up your own mind. Be a human. With a spine. And your own opinion. People might not like it, but at least you'll be you.
• delecti 9y ago
  I don't see their preferences as necessarily conflicting from your point of view. Some people of various groups want the ability to have events of their own, and others want to be included in non-restrictive coding events. Allow/encourage both. Don't fight back against "Women Who Code" events, and be welcoming and polite to women at non-restrictive coding events. You don't need to have a stance on which is better, and as long as you don't try to have a white or men exclusive event I don't see you having any trouble.
  • akatechis 9y ago
    Why would a white or men exclusive event be trouble? Are white men the tainted scourge of the world?
    • delecti 9y ago
      Are you asking sincerely, or are you trying to do some false equivalence sealioning nonsense?
      • Caveman_Coder 9y ago
        It seemed like a legitimate question. The parent comment said pretty much every selectivity group is okay except for white males and the child post simply asked why is that the case. At least that's how I read it.
        • delecti 9y ago
          My point is that I find it extremely hard to believe that anybody could ask the question "what's wrong with a whites only event?" in sincerity. That said, I admit that a men only event is reasonable in certain circumstances.
• vxxxxxxxxxxxxx 9y ago
  As a fresh US immigrant from the middle of Europe yet visually passing as an average white man, I haven't even shared the style of upbringing that people assume I did, and yet I lean closer to the opinion expressed above because I fear that a determined person with an agenda can find a way to use my story or opinions to illustrate their point and paint me and broad classes of people as problematic in the process. I empathize with those who've also turned to self-censorship for fear of being branded as part of a the problem. I want to have the tough conversations, but not at the expense of being made a public example for holding opinions that are neither hateful nor malicious, just colored by my origins and journey through life: the exact same factors that others advocate taking into account. The whole thing is really unfortunate: people holding moderate (and in many ways, mainstream) opinions are withdrawing from the public discourse, which I don't believe is conducive to satisfactory progress.
  • nsxwolf 9y ago
    I have kids to take care of. There are certain opinions I might have that I dare not discuss. I don't even dare say I have such opinions even without naming them, that's how deep the impulse to self-censor goes. Let's just say I do, hypothetically. I would very much fear for the economic consequences of voicing various opinions. Even if they didn't lead to my termination at work, I'm certain they would prevent any kind of career advancement. I'm reasonably sure I can survive in the world without my opinions being known, or the changes I presumably would like to see not being made. In short, they win, I'll survive somehow, and my kids will eat. They'll also maybe learn that some things I might believe are not acceptable, and will have to think about that when choosing to believe them themselves. Certain ideas and people have definitively won the day, and it's now just survival mode for many.
    • alphapapa 9y ago
      The question then is, will the world your children inherit be better or worse for people such as yourself holding their tongues. These free speech rights we technically have were not acquired without cost--on the contrary, they came at enormous cost in blood. Now we refrain from defending them because doing so might inconvenience us. Of course, it's easy for me to say this, sitting in front of a computer writing vague comments. Food for thought, especially for Americans the day after Independence Day.
• stickfigure 9y ago
  What's wrong with having no opinion? We're talking about the behavior of others; who cares if Sally wants to order chicken or Fred wants a blue car or Mark and Sarah want to form a club for Pittsburgh-expats? If someone wants to create an award for women/minorities/lefties/gingers/etc, it seems perfectly reasonable to feel neither positively or negatively about it. This isn't a test, you don't get marked down for "no answer".
• macns 9y ago
  [..] I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. The post and the parent comment show that this is not a matter of opinion, not a matter to be confused of; we're all human, nothing more, nothing less. Keeping this in mind will clear things up for everyone eventually.
• dclowd9901 9y ago
  There's a third choice: Have a supportive opinion. Knowing full-well that you don't understand what it's like to be a woman/African American/non-binary/non-straight person in this situation, express belief in everyone's individual experience, and support them in it. Don't assume you know, just listen and show support. If it's a matter of having to decide between the two opinions, bow out, because you have no say.