5 ms·

Of course, the flipside of this is the flipside of Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness - if the cheap boots that fall apart quickly

Of course, the flipside of this is the flipside of Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness - if the cheap boots that fall apart quickly didn't exist, Sam Vimes would not be able to buy boots at all in the first place. The solution is, of course, to put more people in a position where they can afford to buy the more expensive boots and see the value in doing so.

mattlondon 9y ago
I am unconvinced that more expensive = better quality for a lot of things these days. There are some anecdotal examples of people with Miele washing machines that have lasted for decades etc (... as an aside I guess we wont know about today's Miele washing machines for several more years at least ...), but in my experience paying a premium for a product more often than not just gives you an as-cheaply-made product but with a brand name you've heard of. I am very happy to pay for decent stuff, but I am not prepared to pay extra for the same quality stuff just to get a brand name. What seems to be the biggest problem these days for me is not mechanical failures, but what can only be assumed to be software failures - things just going haywire or flashing an LED/error code and not doing what they should. Perhaps there is some cheap capacitor that has blown somewhere, but it is often a waffly explanation along the lines of "logic board has failed" (and they are always super-expensive to replace due to it being 10 years old and not made/stocked any more etc etc). It is usually more sensible to replace a 5-15 year old appliance with a new one, rather than buying a spare part that costs 50% of an entire new appliance, (plus then you usually get the benefits of improved energy efficiency)
- ohyes 9y ago
  i've replaced bad caps in many home electronics, its kind of amazing how often you can look at a board and know the capacitor is hosed just by looking at it.
- roel_v 9y ago
  If you buy a Miele appliance anf get the extended guarantee which is ~10% of the purchase price, you get 7 years guarantee. As in, something breaks, tomorrow a repairman will be at your house and fix it, no extra cost. Quality is available, people just don't want to pay for it. Those washing machines that lasted for 15 years? Back then, they cost one or two months' wages. Try to get anyone to pay $2500 for a washing machine today.
  - unbeli 9y ago
    That's available too and people do pay. For instance, https://www.vzug.com/ch/de/product/ch-Catalog/1101100004 https://www.vzug.com/ch/de/product/ch-Catalog/1101100004
    - mamon 9y ago
      Yeah, 3900 CHF and only 2 years of warranty... I can imagine cost of spare parts after it expires. For this price I would expect 7 years warranty as minimum.
  - lindner 9y ago
    Speed Queen is making a go of it. Slogan is "Built Better to Last Longer." https://speedqueen.com/ https://speedqueen.com/ When my Frigidaire washer finally dies that's what I'm getting. I already injured myself replacing the pump once. And now that I've seen the cheap plastic parts used I don't have confidence it's going to last.
    - undersuit 9y ago
      I like it. It's like buying a commercial TV because they aren't full of smart features[1] and are made to run under harsher conditions(i.e. 24/7). Better yet, the MultiSync V404 model can have a Raspberry Pi plugged in for your own custom smart features. [1]https://www.nec-display-solutions.com/p/uk/en/products/choice.xhtml?cat=PublicDisplays https://www.nec-display-solutions.com/p/uk/en/products/choic...
  - lindner 9y ago
    Speed Queen is making a go of it. Slogan is "Built Better to Last Longer." https://speedqueen.com/ https://speedqueen.com/ When my Frigidaire washer finally dies that's what I'm getting. I already injured myself replacing the pump once. And now that I've seen the cheap plastic parts used I don't have confidence it's going to last.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    >Quality is available, people just don't want to pay for it. Those washing machines that lasted for 15 years? Back then, they cost one or two months' wages. Try to get anyone to pay $2500 for a washing machine today. Back then people could afford to spend two months wages on a product like that. That people today don't reflects just as much (if not more) on their ability to do so as it does on their willingness.
- Retric 9y ago
  It depends on what you call cheap. I stopped buying ultra cheap clothing as it rarely lasts 5 laundry cycles and sometimes starts to visibly fail on the first cycle. I realize that it's a viable niche for people with giant piles of clothing they rarely use. But, the jump from 4>40 is reasonable the jump from 40+ stops being economic.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  I just bought a washing machine. I spent a long, long time looking for the simplest one I could find, in the hopes that I could replace any mechanical part. From other HN threads it seems the control panels tend to go out a lot. Since I live in an apartment and wanted a small one anyway, I ended up with a portable one (oneConcept DB004 - odd name) that uses mechanical timers for the stages (you can hear them ticking!). It hasn't arrived yet but I am hopeful that when it inevitably breaks I can fix it. I want to get a dishwasher next and sadly don't know if I can find something equivalent.
  - mark-r 9y ago
    I wonder if energy regulations make it hard for mechanical products since they don't have the flexibility of electronic components.
    - CalRobert 9y ago
      That's certainly possible. Same goes for water - I note that Bosch dishwasher have some sort of system that analyzes the water to see if it's still clean enough to use before using more. Clever, and a savings for water, but one more complicated thing to break. Of course, I fail to see why most modern consumer products can't just be driven with a Raspberry pi or arduino. Using off-the-shelf parts like that would do wonders for serviceability.
      - photojosh 9y ago
        I design embedded products for industry and usually prototype with Arduino and Pi-alikes before designing the final board. A custom board assembly is much cheaper to manufacture. For instance, for a recent design, the only chip used off a full Arduino board was the microcontroller itself (and then in a different, smaller package). Physical and electrical constraints are often significant. And that's before getting into all the issues involved with firmware and IP. I love the idea of open-source (hardware and software) consumer appliances, but everything is stacked against it. Primarily economies of scale.
Brakenshire 9y ago
> if the cheap boots that fall apart quickly didn't exist, Sam Vimes would not be able to buy boots at all in the first place. On the other hand, if the scale in the marketplace was in durable boots, then companies would be able to optimize for that, and the price would almost certainly come down. There would be a shift away from fashion design, and marketing, towards product engineering to be able to produce that product at a price that most people could afford.

mattlondon 9y ago

I am unconvinced that more expensive = better quality for a lot of things these days. There are some anecdotal examples of people with Miele washing machines that have lasted for decades etc (... as an aside I guess we wont know about today's Miele washing machines for several more years at least ...), but in my experience paying a premium for a product more often than not just gives you an as-cheaply-made product but with a brand name you've heard of. I am very happy to pay for decent stuff, but I am not prepared to pay extra for the same quality stuff just to get a brand name. What seems to be the biggest problem these days for me is not mechanical failures, but what can only be assumed to be software failures - things just going haywire or flashing an LED/error code and not doing what they should. Perhaps there is some cheap capacitor that has blown somewhere, but it is often a waffly explanation along the lines of "logic board has failed" (and they are always super-expensive to replace due to it being 10 years old and not made/stocked any more etc etc). It is usually more sensible to replace a 5-15 year old appliance with a new one, rather than buying a spare part that costs 50% of an entire new appliance, (plus then you usually get the benefits of improved energy efficiency)

ohyes 9y ago
i've replaced bad caps in many home electronics, its kind of amazing how often you can look at a board and know the capacitor is hosed just by looking at it.
roel_v 9y ago
If you buy a Miele appliance anf get the extended guarantee which is ~10% of the purchase price, you get 7 years guarantee. As in, something breaks, tomorrow a repairman will be at your house and fix it, no extra cost. Quality is available, people just don't want to pay for it. Those washing machines that lasted for 15 years? Back then, they cost one or two months' wages. Try to get anyone to pay $2500 for a washing machine today.
- unbeli 9y ago
  That's available too and people do pay. For instance, https://www.vzug.com/ch/de/product/ch-Catalog/1101100004 https://www.vzug.com/ch/de/product/ch-Catalog/1101100004
  - mamon 9y ago
    Yeah, 3900 CHF and only 2 years of warranty... I can imagine cost of spare parts after it expires. For this price I would expect 7 years warranty as minimum.
- lindner 9y ago
  Speed Queen is making a go of it. Slogan is "Built Better to Last Longer." https://speedqueen.com/ https://speedqueen.com/ When my Frigidaire washer finally dies that's what I'm getting. I already injured myself replacing the pump once. And now that I've seen the cheap plastic parts used I don't have confidence it's going to last.
  - undersuit 9y ago
    I like it. It's like buying a commercial TV because they aren't full of smart features[1] and are made to run under harsher conditions(i.e. 24/7). Better yet, the MultiSync V404 model can have a Raspberry Pi plugged in for your own custom smart features. [1]https://www.nec-display-solutions.com/p/uk/en/products/choice.xhtml?cat=PublicDisplays https://www.nec-display-solutions.com/p/uk/en/products/choic...
- lindner 9y ago
  Speed Queen is making a go of it. Slogan is "Built Better to Last Longer." https://speedqueen.com/ https://speedqueen.com/ When my Frigidaire washer finally dies that's what I'm getting. I already injured myself replacing the pump once. And now that I've seen the cheap plastic parts used I don't have confidence it's going to last.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  >Quality is available, people just don't want to pay for it. Those washing machines that lasted for 15 years? Back then, they cost one or two months' wages. Try to get anyone to pay $2500 for a washing machine today. Back then people could afford to spend two months wages on a product like that. That people today don't reflects just as much (if not more) on their ability to do so as it does on their willingness.
Retric 9y ago
It depends on what you call cheap. I stopped buying ultra cheap clothing as it rarely lasts 5 laundry cycles and sometimes starts to visibly fail on the first cycle. I realize that it's a viable niche for people with giant piles of clothing they rarely use. But, the jump from 4>40 is reasonable the jump from 40+ stops being economic.
CalRobert 9y ago
I just bought a washing machine. I spent a long, long time looking for the simplest one I could find, in the hopes that I could replace any mechanical part. From other HN threads it seems the control panels tend to go out a lot. Since I live in an apartment and wanted a small one anyway, I ended up with a portable one (oneConcept DB004 - odd name) that uses mechanical timers for the stages (you can hear them ticking!). It hasn't arrived yet but I am hopeful that when it inevitably breaks I can fix it. I want to get a dishwasher next and sadly don't know if I can find something equivalent.
- mark-r 9y ago
  I wonder if energy regulations make it hard for mechanical products since they don't have the flexibility of electronic components.
  - CalRobert 9y ago
    That's certainly possible. Same goes for water - I note that Bosch dishwasher have some sort of system that analyzes the water to see if it's still clean enough to use before using more. Clever, and a savings for water, but one more complicated thing to break. Of course, I fail to see why most modern consumer products can't just be driven with a Raspberry pi or arduino. Using off-the-shelf parts like that would do wonders for serviceability.
    - photojosh 9y ago
      I design embedded products for industry and usually prototype with Arduino and Pi-alikes before designing the final board. A custom board assembly is much cheaper to manufacture. For instance, for a recent design, the only chip used off a full Arduino board was the microcontroller itself (and then in a different, smaller package). Physical and electrical constraints are often significant. And that's before getting into all the issues involved with firmware and IP. I love the idea of open-source (hardware and software) consumer appliances, but everything is stacked against it. Primarily economies of scale.

Brakenshire 9y ago

> if the cheap boots that fall apart quickly didn't exist, Sam Vimes would not be able to buy boots at all in the first place. On the other hand, if the scale in the marketplace was in durable boots, then companies would be able to optimize for that, and the price would almost certainly come down. There would be a shift away from fashion design, and marketing, towards product engineering to be able to produce that product at a price that most people could afford.