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I think the focus on skin color in the "white people" construct is apt and points to a very important truth. A certain type of American only consider you to be

I think the focus on skin color in the "white people" construct is apt and points to a very important truth. A certain type of American only consider you to be a 'real' American if you're white. And, not to only beat up on white people, lots of black Americans only consider you to be a real American if you're either black or white. The focus on values really is horseshit, you can comfortably substitute "white intergenerational wealth" for that and get a much better fit for meaning.

tptacek 9y ago
I want to be clear that I don't think the values Rayiner appreciates are horseshit, just their framing as something intrinsically "European" --- a term that really doesn't mean that much. If we're going to be intellectually honest, we should refer directly to the specific European culture whose values we're claiming. If not, we shouldn't frame those values in such a way as to exclude Mexicans. The values themselves are, I think, super important. Americans should aspire to American civic norms, not those of Bangladesh, or Mexico, or Italy or Greece. That belief, I think, puts me to the right of some vocal leftists. Which is what, I think, Rayiner is talking about. But I also think that segment of the left is on the fringe.
- themgt 9y ago
  Inherently any discussion about human cultures and values is going to fail a fully reductionism approach. But to be more specific one might refer to Northwest Europe, inside the Hajnal line, arguably creating institutions and cultures encouraging an interlocking and self-reinforcing set of values like universalism, non-consanguineous marriage, anti-nepotism, rationality, individualism. These values do not "belong" to Europeans or any specific group of them, but if one looked at the cluster of societies in which those values were most strongly supported one would find a high degree of correlation to ones relative closeness to a NW European population.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    If you want to say that the Spanish, Italian, Greek, and Polish cultures aren't crucial to what we consider idealized American values, I will not agree with you (I think the idea of tying those values to geography is inherently silly), but at least it's more intellectually honest than pretending that all Americans of European descent share a set of "western" values that Mexicans lack. Cards on the table: I am happy to see work done to undo the false coalition of "whiteness" our culture constructed 100 years ago to oppress black people (and, now, Latinos). Let's see the Scandinavian- and German- and Anglo- American population continue trying to run the table on "American values" with the Polish working arm in arm with blacks and Latinos, instead of against them. :) It sounds crazy hyperbolic to write it out like this, I know! But, from what I can tell: this is what actually happened. We're pretty deep into a tangent on this thread --- embarrassingly, as was pointed out way up top in response to your original comment, none of this is even what the article is about --- so I'm happy to leave the discussion wrapped up here.
    - themgt 9y ago
      You don't seem to want to have this discussion in good faith and want to continue returning to reductionist "gotcha! we have non-NW Euro cultures too!" when I explicitly prefaced and qualified what I was saying multiple times to try to avoid these pointless gotchas. You obviously have an agenda you wish to push, and whether or not that agenda has a lot of support from science or history doesn't seem of interest to you, so I too will leave the discussion here.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

tptacek 9y ago

I want to be clear that I don't think the values Rayiner appreciates are horseshit, just their framing as something intrinsically "European" --- a term that really doesn't mean that much. If we're going to be intellectually honest, we should refer directly to the specific European culture whose values we're claiming. If not, we shouldn't frame those values in such a way as to exclude Mexicans. The values themselves are, I think, super important. Americans should aspire to American civic norms, not those of Bangladesh, or Mexico, or Italy or Greece. That belief, I think, puts me to the right of some vocal leftists. Which is what, I think, Rayiner is talking about. But I also think that segment of the left is on the fringe.

themgt 9y ago
Inherently any discussion about human cultures and values is going to fail a fully reductionism approach. But to be more specific one might refer to Northwest Europe, inside the Hajnal line, arguably creating institutions and cultures encouraging an interlocking and self-reinforcing set of values like universalism, non-consanguineous marriage, anti-nepotism, rationality, individualism. These values do not "belong" to Europeans or any specific group of them, but if one looked at the cluster of societies in which those values were most strongly supported one would find a high degree of correlation to ones relative closeness to a NW European population.
- tptacek 9y ago
  If you want to say that the Spanish, Italian, Greek, and Polish cultures aren't crucial to what we consider idealized American values, I will not agree with you (I think the idea of tying those values to geography is inherently silly), but at least it's more intellectually honest than pretending that all Americans of European descent share a set of "western" values that Mexicans lack. Cards on the table: I am happy to see work done to undo the false coalition of "whiteness" our culture constructed 100 years ago to oppress black people (and, now, Latinos). Let's see the Scandinavian- and German- and Anglo- American population continue trying to run the table on "American values" with the Polish working arm in arm with blacks and Latinos, instead of against them. :) It sounds crazy hyperbolic to write it out like this, I know! But, from what I can tell: this is what actually happened. We're pretty deep into a tangent on this thread --- embarrassingly, as was pointed out way up top in response to your original comment, none of this is even what the article is about --- so I'm happy to leave the discussion wrapped up here.
  - themgt 9y ago
    You don't seem to want to have this discussion in good faith and want to continue returning to reductionist "gotcha! we have non-NW Euro cultures too!" when I explicitly prefaced and qualified what I was saying multiple times to try to avoid these pointless gotchas. You obviously have an agenda you wish to push, and whether or not that agenda has a lot of support from science or history doesn't seem of interest to you, so I too will leave the discussion here.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]