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Don't mistake a curated highlight reel for ground truth. I used to live in China when I was a kid. There are vast aspects both wonderful and terrible that nev

Don't mistake a curated highlight reel for ground truth. I used to live in China when I was a kid. There are vast aspects both wonderful and terrible that never seem to make themselves known in the Western world. China has tremendous potential. It also has deep, systemic problems with no easy solution (or even a solution at all) in sight.

coldtea 9y ago
So just like any other country, which is amazing for a 1.x billion behemoth.
- Baeocystin 9y ago
  No. Amplified. The problems we're having in the West, even today, are a hangnail compared to the societal-structural issues currently facing mainland China.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Can you give any examples? Undoubtedly there are still numerous problems, but is it not just that they can't fix the entire country simultaneously, and some areas just have to wait their turn?
    - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
      Rich poor divide. Transportation. Pollution. Environment. Ethnic separatism/unrest. Energy. Public Health. Rights of criminally accused. And a not quite as well refined legal system...for instance I was reading about how drivers who accidentally hit a pedestrian are actually incentivise to backup to make sure to kill the pedestrians. And the social acceptance and ability to talk freely about social issues in public forums.
      - E6300 9y ago
        > drivers who accidentally hit a pedestrian are actually incentivise to backup to make sure to kill the pedestrians Why?
        schoen 9y ago
        Mostly based on a 2015 Slate article which might not be accurate (in terms of proven cases, as opposed to people's familiarity with the concept). http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.single.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2... http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/ http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/
        E6300 9y ago
        I don't know if that's true or not, but if the penalties described in that article are accurate, I'd say the penalties for killing someone with a vehicle, either from recklessness or malice, are shockingly lenient.
        em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
        Yeah. My impression is that Chinese penalites for many crimes are out of whack and need to be tuned better so the punishment fits the crime. (Not saying that The West is perfect, but as I said above, I don't think China's legal system is quite as well-refined.) There was actually quite a lot of discussion on HN on the slate article, with many people who live(d) in China attesting to the truth of the article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10173395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10173395
        Baeocystin 9y ago
        Speaking as someone who lived in China for many years: one of the biggest culture-shock differences Westerners (and particularly Americans) experience in Chinese cities is how people will straight up refuse to help strangers they don't know. This is not because Chinese people are dicks. Frankly, if you're a (white) foreigner, you're going to be treated better than average by almost everyone as it is. But people hold back, because helping other people has the potential to have huge negative consequences if you get involved. Here in the states, people are amazingly open to helping someone they've never met. This cultural assumption works because everyone 'just knows' that the person helping is not responsible for anything beyond that particular interaction. We even have Good Samaritan laws on the books that ensure that it is legally safe to do your best to render assistance in extreme circumstances. It is the complete opposite in China. If you help someone, it is assumed that you are taking responsibility for their entire problem. (Yes, I am oversimplifying, there's more to it than this. But this is an accurate general gist.) I don't know anything about this fellow, but this particular video of his, at least, does an excellent job explaining what is going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4vXYfa06k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4vXYfa06k He is talking about the modern experience, but it is the same as what I remember from the 80's. The only thing I disagree with him about is that I do not see it as a new phenomenon.
    - chibg10 9y ago
      One of the biggest (possibly THE biggest) economic issue facing China in the near future is a demographic crisis resulting from the One Child Policy. A large part of China's economic growth has been the result of the growth of its workforce. Historically, Mao believed "people are power" and encouraged high birth rates--leading to China's gigantic present-day population. This has worked out great in making China an attractive place to manufacture. As a reaction to the population explosion though, the CCP imposed the One Child Policy in 1980 (1979?). Consequently, China will now start to face the aging and shrinking workforce problem that has slowed Western economies in recent years--except China's version of the problem will be MUCH worse due to the extreme nature of its fertility swings. In fact, I believe the size of China's labor force hit its peak a few years ago. In addition to the shrinking workforce, a historically rapidly aging society will have to face an explosion in healthcare costs... which tend to be a drag on the economy (though are obviously necessary). Furthermore, China doesn't have the retirement home infrastructure that the West has, which will absolutely need to expand as China has a huge retiring population who have few children compared to the rest of the world.
      - mistermann 9y ago
        Is it not true though that a massive portion of the country remains unindustrialized, so even if on a percentage basis the population is aging, in absolute numbers there will still be plenty of young people from the farms that could take the place of the current manufacturing workforce?
        Baeocystin 9y ago
        It is not. It is also a matter of education: many of the rural poor would simply not be able to take over non-manual-labor jobs. The severe sex ratio imbalance that resulted from the OCP has also had significant, negative effects on relationships in general. https://www.economist.com/news/asia/21648715-distorted-sex-ratios-birth-generation-ago-are-changing-marriage-and-damaging-societies-asias https://www.economist.com/news/asia/21648715-distorted-sex-r...

coldtea 9y ago

So just like any other country, which is amazing for a 1.x billion behemoth.

Baeocystin 9y ago
No. Amplified. The problems we're having in the West, even today, are a hangnail compared to the societal-structural issues currently facing mainland China.
- mistermann 9y ago
  Can you give any examples? Undoubtedly there are still numerous problems, but is it not just that they can't fix the entire country simultaneously, and some areas just have to wait their turn?
  - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
    Rich poor divide. Transportation. Pollution. Environment. Ethnic separatism/unrest. Energy. Public Health. Rights of criminally accused. And a not quite as well refined legal system...for instance I was reading about how drivers who accidentally hit a pedestrian are actually incentivise to backup to make sure to kill the pedestrians. And the social acceptance and ability to talk freely about social issues in public forums.
    - E6300 9y ago
      > drivers who accidentally hit a pedestrian are actually incentivise to backup to make sure to kill the pedestrians Why?
      - schoen 9y ago
        Mostly based on a 2015 Slate article which might not be accurate (in terms of proven cases, as opposed to people's familiarity with the concept). http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.single.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2... http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/ http://www.snopes.com/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/
        E6300 9y ago
        I don't know if that's true or not, but if the penalties described in that article are accurate, I'd say the penalties for killing someone with a vehicle, either from recklessness or malice, are shockingly lenient.
        em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
        Yeah. My impression is that Chinese penalites for many crimes are out of whack and need to be tuned better so the punishment fits the crime. (Not saying that The West is perfect, but as I said above, I don't think China's legal system is quite as well-refined.) There was actually quite a lot of discussion on HN on the slate article, with many people who live(d) in China attesting to the truth of the article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10173395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10173395
        Baeocystin 9y ago
        Speaking as someone who lived in China for many years: one of the biggest culture-shock differences Westerners (and particularly Americans) experience in Chinese cities is how people will straight up refuse to help strangers they don't know. This is not because Chinese people are dicks. Frankly, if you're a (white) foreigner, you're going to be treated better than average by almost everyone as it is. But people hold back, because helping other people has the potential to have huge negative consequences if you get involved. Here in the states, people are amazingly open to helping someone they've never met. This cultural assumption works because everyone 'just knows' that the person helping is not responsible for anything beyond that particular interaction. We even have Good Samaritan laws on the books that ensure that it is legally safe to do your best to render assistance in extreme circumstances. It is the complete opposite in China. If you help someone, it is assumed that you are taking responsibility for their entire problem. (Yes, I am oversimplifying, there's more to it than this. But this is an accurate general gist.) I don't know anything about this fellow, but this particular video of his, at least, does an excellent job explaining what is going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4vXYfa06k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4vXYfa06k He is talking about the modern experience, but it is the same as what I remember from the 80's. The only thing I disagree with him about is that I do not see it as a new phenomenon.
  - chibg10 9y ago
    One of the biggest (possibly THE biggest) economic issue facing China in the near future is a demographic crisis resulting from the One Child Policy. A large part of China's economic growth has been the result of the growth of its workforce. Historically, Mao believed "people are power" and encouraged high birth rates--leading to China's gigantic present-day population. This has worked out great in making China an attractive place to manufacture. As a reaction to the population explosion though, the CCP imposed the One Child Policy in 1980 (1979?). Consequently, China will now start to face the aging and shrinking workforce problem that has slowed Western economies in recent years--except China's version of the problem will be MUCH worse due to the extreme nature of its fertility swings. In fact, I believe the size of China's labor force hit its peak a few years ago. In addition to the shrinking workforce, a historically rapidly aging society will have to face an explosion in healthcare costs... which tend to be a drag on the economy (though are obviously necessary). Furthermore, China doesn't have the retirement home infrastructure that the West has, which will absolutely need to expand as China has a huge retiring population who have few children compared to the rest of the world.
    - mistermann 9y ago
      Is it not true though that a massive portion of the country remains unindustrialized, so even if on a percentage basis the population is aging, in absolute numbers there will still be plenty of young people from the farms that could take the place of the current manufacturing workforce?
      - Baeocystin 9y ago
        It is not. It is also a matter of education: many of the rural poor would simply not be able to take over non-manual-labor jobs. The severe sex ratio imbalance that resulted from the OCP has also had significant, negative effects on relationships in general. https://www.economist.com/news/asia/21648715-distorted-sex-ratios-birth-generation-ago-are-changing-marriage-and-damaging-societies-asias https://www.economist.com/news/asia/21648715-distorted-sex-r...