4 ms·

"The CIA even helped to make an episode of Top Chef that was hosted at Langley, featuring then-CIA director Leon Panetta who was shown as having to skip dessert

"The CIA even helped to make an episode of Top Chef that was hosted at Langley, featuring then-CIA director Leon Panetta who was shown as having to skip dessert to attend to vital business. Was this scene real, or was it a dramatic statement for the cameras?" Wow. Good work on the FOIA retrieval, but I'm utterly out on the hyperbolic speculative tone. The editor undercuts the good journalism being done here when they allow foolishness like this in. I think the authors are also making the unsupported assumption that every government / Hollywood cooperation incident is a propaganda op, instead of far simpler explanations like "Joe in Langley publicity gets to brag to his family that he made the Top Chef episode happen."

cat199 9y ago
> I think the authors are also making the unsupported assumption that every government / Hollywood cooperation incident is a propaganda op, instead of far simpler explanations like "Joe in Langley publicity gets to brag to his family that he made the Top Chef episode happen." This presumes a (IMHO dubious) philosophical position that at high enough levels (e.g. director of agency), public actions don't automatically create an implied message automatically and can actually be presented in a separate, neutral, context..
- colechristensen 9y ago
  On that level then you're calling everything a high level individual does publicly propaganda which dilutes the term into meaninglessness. Willful public manipulation is interesting, but if you cast the net so wide as to say everything public is manipulative, you can't be justified in being upset at all.
cobbzilla 9y ago
Hey, they've come a long way since Jackson Pollock [1]. While I do enjoy quite a bit of modern art, I was nonetheless disappointed to discover that some of the "tastemakers" of '60s/'70s abstract expressionism were US federal three-letter-acronym agencies [2]. The saga, apparently, continues to this day. Caveat emptor, indeed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Pollock#Critical_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Pollock#Critical_debat... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-...
- 3131s 9y ago
  Art is one of the businesses that is conducive to money laundering. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/arts/design/art-proves-attractive-refuge-for-money-launderers.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/arts/design/art-proves-att...
simias 9y ago
I'm not much of a conspiracy nut but I don't have any issues with the excerpt you quoted. Those "reality" TV shows are famously heavily scripted and edited, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they did script the "skip dessert to attend to vital business" to some degree. Maybe he did have to leave early because of a scheduled meeting but it just didn't have the same ring to it? Now you could say that it's not a big deal either way and I would tend to agree but one could argue that there's a slippery slope when you muddy the line between reality and fiction in the minds of the audience of a mass media.
- tormeh 9y ago
  >Now you could say that it's not a big deal either way and I would tend to agree but one could argue that there's a slippery slope when you muddy the line between reality and fiction in the minds of the audience of a mass media. In reality television that line has passed the horizon a while ago.
  - stuaxo 9y ago
    Where is the line? Some shows like The Only Way Is Essex in the UK was confusing when it first came out, later on we found out it wasn't "reality tv", but a new genre "curated reality".
    - oxide 9y ago
      I much preferred some of those Gordon Ramsay series UK versions. Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares was more akin to a documentary than the US version's on FOX with its awful jumpy editing and constant music in the background. The TV becomes more compelling when game show music isn't blaring and the focus is on how to run a restaurant. Instead of only about family infighting. The extra 5 or 6 mins helps a lot, nothing feels rushed to a conclusion like US reality TV. Another good one was Gordon's Great Escape. Documentary style reality tv works so much better IMO.
      - stuaxo 9y ago
        Indeed, those are different things, the US kitchen nightmares being more about the "people zoo" aspect.
ChuckMcM 9y ago
I flew next to a navy Commander who was responsible for coordinating the use of Navy ships and personnel with television and movie production companies. His take on it was that the Navy wouldn't participate if it made the services look bad or show them to be operating in a manner that wasn't in service to their mission. It seemed like a reasonable trade-off. He also mentioned that CGI was making the use of actual hardware less common.
- pvg 9y ago
  That's not a take, it's longstanding policy. Apocalypse Now is a well-known example (link goes to google books, shortened because their real URLs are infinite): http://goo.gl/szAMGZ http://goo.gl/szAMGZ
  - ChuckMcM 9y ago
    Thanks for the link, the referenced article would be so much more balanced if it included it as well.
thinkfurther 9y ago
> making the unsupported assumption that every government / Hollywood cooperation incident is a propaganda op, instead of far simpler explanations like "Joe in Langley publicity gets to brag to his family that he made the Top Chef episode happen." To me it's like /r/hailcorporate, it doesn't primarily matter if it's intentional or not. There are many people exhausting their potential, credibility and dignity for the sake of identifying with some Moloch or other. Here, there, elsewhere. What had to be mostly forced, on people who had to be broken and tamed in the first place, now comes flowing freely, because Stockholm Syndrome is the gift that keeps on giving. So? Not everything is a propaganda "op", just like a piece of moss is not a fabricated carpet. It still has the effect of a carpet among other things, and grows systematically, consciously or not. By the way, even the White Rose considered their own leaflets propaganda, then there's things like agitprop, I kind of wonder when and when that became such a hard word to use in earnest without theatrical eye rolling. The problem isn't propaganda, the problem is the lack of integrity and morals. In a more decent world, I would absolutely LOVE to have firefighters and cops and IT security people and whoever make propaganda, I would help them make it. There would be no soldiers obvs, because the only use those have is to defend against other soldiers at best, murder civilians at worst, which is a net negative. Anyway, the problem to me is the corruption of institutions, not the institutions. A non-corrupt institution "being cute" or "posing as cool" actually is cute or least dorky in a likeable way respectively. Otherwise, "op" or not, propaganda or not, it's always way over the nasty line for me, certainly when money, lies and murder are involved.
nyolfen 9y ago
this kind of program, or eg tv specials about the obl assassination, serve as pr in terms of establishing shadowy three letter agency figures as relatable humans. putting faces to them encourages positive default assumptions, versus the frequently critical news media attention directed toward them.

cat199 9y ago

> I think the authors are also making the unsupported assumption that every government / Hollywood cooperation incident is a propaganda op, instead of far simpler explanations like "Joe in Langley publicity gets to brag to his family that he made the Top Chef episode happen." This presumes a (IMHO dubious) philosophical position that at high enough levels (e.g. director of agency), public actions don't automatically create an implied message automatically and can actually be presented in a separate, neutral, context..

colechristensen 9y ago
On that level then you're calling everything a high level individual does publicly propaganda which dilutes the term into meaninglessness. Willful public manipulation is interesting, but if you cast the net so wide as to say everything public is manipulative, you can't be justified in being upset at all.

cobbzilla 9y ago

Hey, they've come a long way since Jackson Pollock [1]. While I do enjoy quite a bit of modern art, I was nonetheless disappointed to discover that some of the "tastemakers" of '60s/'70s abstract expressionism were US federal three-letter-acronym agencies [2]. The saga, apparently, continues to this day. Caveat emptor, indeed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Pollock#Critical_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Pollock#Critical_debat... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-...

3131s 9y ago
Art is one of the businesses that is conducive to money laundering. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/arts/design/art-proves-attractive-refuge-for-money-launderers.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/arts/design/art-proves-att...

simias 9y ago

I'm not much of a conspiracy nut but I don't have any issues with the excerpt you quoted. Those "reality" TV shows are famously heavily scripted and edited, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they did script the "skip dessert to attend to vital business" to some degree. Maybe he did have to leave early because of a scheduled meeting but it just didn't have the same ring to it? Now you could say that it's not a big deal either way and I would tend to agree but one could argue that there's a slippery slope when you muddy the line between reality and fiction in the minds of the audience of a mass media.

tormeh 9y ago
>Now you could say that it's not a big deal either way and I would tend to agree but one could argue that there's a slippery slope when you muddy the line between reality and fiction in the minds of the audience of a mass media. In reality television that line has passed the horizon a while ago.
- stuaxo 9y ago
  Where is the line? Some shows like The Only Way Is Essex in the UK was confusing when it first came out, later on we found out it wasn't "reality tv", but a new genre "curated reality".
  - oxide 9y ago
    I much preferred some of those Gordon Ramsay series UK versions. Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares was more akin to a documentary than the US version's on FOX with its awful jumpy editing and constant music in the background. The TV becomes more compelling when game show music isn't blaring and the focus is on how to run a restaurant. Instead of only about family infighting. The extra 5 or 6 mins helps a lot, nothing feels rushed to a conclusion like US reality TV. Another good one was Gordon's Great Escape. Documentary style reality tv works so much better IMO.
    - stuaxo 9y ago
      Indeed, those are different things, the US kitchen nightmares being more about the "people zoo" aspect.

ChuckMcM 9y ago

I flew next to a navy Commander who was responsible for coordinating the use of Navy ships and personnel with television and movie production companies. His take on it was that the Navy wouldn't participate if it made the services look bad or show them to be operating in a manner that wasn't in service to their mission. It seemed like a reasonable trade-off. He also mentioned that CGI was making the use of actual hardware less common.

pvg 9y ago
That's not a take, it's longstanding policy. Apocalypse Now is a well-known example (link goes to google books, shortened because their real URLs are infinite): http://goo.gl/szAMGZ http://goo.gl/szAMGZ
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  Thanks for the link, the referenced article would be so much more balanced if it included it as well.

thinkfurther 9y ago

> making the unsupported assumption that every government / Hollywood cooperation incident is a propaganda op, instead of far simpler explanations like "Joe in Langley publicity gets to brag to his family that he made the Top Chef episode happen." To me it's like /r/hailcorporate, it doesn't primarily matter if it's intentional or not. There are many people exhausting their potential, credibility and dignity for the sake of identifying with some Moloch or other. Here, there, elsewhere. What had to be mostly forced, on people who had to be broken and tamed in the first place, now comes flowing freely, because Stockholm Syndrome is the gift that keeps on giving. So? Not everything is a propaganda "op", just like a piece of moss is not a fabricated carpet. It still has the effect of a carpet among other things, and grows systematically, consciously or not. By the way, even the White Rose considered their own leaflets propaganda, then there's things like agitprop, I kind of wonder when and when that became such a hard word to use in earnest without theatrical eye rolling. The problem isn't propaganda, the problem is the lack of integrity and morals. In a more decent world, I would absolutely LOVE to have firefighters and cops and IT security people and whoever make propaganda, I would help them make it. There would be no soldiers obvs, because the only use those have is to defend against other soldiers at best, murder civilians at worst, which is a net negative. Anyway, the problem to me is the corruption of institutions, not the institutions. A non-corrupt institution "being cute" or "posing as cool" actually is cute or least dorky in a likeable way respectively. Otherwise, "op" or not, propaganda or not, it's always way over the nasty line for me, certainly when money, lies and murder are involved.

nyolfen 9y ago

this kind of program, or eg tv specials about the obl assassination, serve as pr in terms of establishing shadowy three letter agency figures as relatable humans. putting faces to them encourages positive default assumptions, versus the frequently critical news media attention directed toward them.