6 ms·

When I've been telling everyone that James Bond and other similar movies serve the same role as military parades in Soviet-block countries, and heavily scripted

When I've been telling everyone that James Bond and other similar movies serve the same role as military parades in Soviet-block countries, and heavily scripted by the military, they told me that this is another conspiracy theory and I must be plainly wrong. I wasn't.

deleted 9y ago
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melling 9y ago
This was documented 30 years ago after the release of Top Gun. http://articles.latimes.com/1986-07-05/entertainment/ca-20403_1_top-gun http://articles.latimes.com/1986-07-05/entertainment/ca-2040... Not sure why you wouldn't illustrate your argument with this information.
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zzzcpan 9y ago
Nah, I'm pretty sure everyone familiar with the subject knows that movie industry is an effective propaganda tool and has been used for this since forever for everything: military, police, democratic values. You just can't hide propaganda even if you want to.
- mistermann 9y ago
  On the contrary, in my experience most people believe that propoganda being used within western countries is a conspiracy theory.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - fixermark 9y ago
    I suspect people assume propaganda is only propaganda if there's a centralized "Ministry of Truth" that (a) has one coherent message, (b) is controlled top-down from a central authority, and (c) has police authority to silence deviations from the playbook by force. As with so much in Western capitalist democracy, America's style of propaganda doesn't fit that authoritarian rubric, but it ends up having similar effect. Major differences are (a) different departments of the US government are protecting their own interests; to the extent the message is "one coherent", it's the principles baked into the institutions, (b) control is decentralized (every department has its own PR budget), and (c) rather than coercion by force, it's coercion by incentive; if you want the opportunity to get your movie "super right" by having professional on-site advisors or access to authentic hardware, you play by the providers' game (and you do want that, because you believe your audience wants that).
    - scalio 9y ago
      House of Cards made me realize something very self-evident: the baddies in "realistic" entertainment media do not reflect the baddies in real life (ditto for the good guys, for that matter). I saw one day that I was conflating real world and HoC politics. Not the actual events, but rather how the different actors got or lost their way. Since I don't know what's going on behind the curtains, I started filling that gap in real-world knowledge with constructions based on the personal politics portrayed in HoC. Now, I try to be as suspicious as sanely possible of anything even remotely tied to politics, and yet it took me a month to notice my error. What happens in minds that don't? I suspect they imagine the real world functions like the dream worlds created in studios. I think that's the insidiousness of propaganda you're describing.
      - mistermann 9y ago
        > What happens in minds that don't? You get our current surreal, completely separated from reality political climate.
- chippy 9y ago
  but it's yes, most people are not familiar with the subject. And you can hide propaganda. Only a very few people are familiar with what goes on. It needs journalism similar to the featured article to raise the awareness of more people. Consider that idea flawed? Then think about Snowden's revelations and the comments on HN before and afterwards.
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Cthulhu_ 9y ago
That's how you know the propaganda's working, when it becomes part of daily life and people deny it's propaganda. Probably also because they have other associations with the word.
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treebeard901 9y ago
James Bond is essentially a franchise built around the psychological need to cope with the collapse of the British empire and all of the associated loss of status that goes with it. In other words, you are correct, Bond movies do not try to hide their nationalism. This is no great revelation.
- subsubsub 9y ago
  I think you might be over estimating how much the British care about having/not having an empire. If you can get around the paywall, this might be worth a read: https://www.ft.com/content/a9c45baa-1dc6-11e7-b7d3-163f5a7f229c https://www.ft.com/content/a9c45baa-1dc6-11e7-b7d3-163f5a7f2...
  - fosco 9y ago
    Thank you for sharing this, I was able to get the cache [0] I look forward to the following "The terminal point of empire is introspection, not a restless desire to do it all over again. " [0] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iE3HThFMctEJ:https://www.ft.com/content/a9c45baa-1dc6-11e7-b7d3-163f5a7f229c%3Fmhq5j%3De1+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iE3HTh...
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - cat199 9y ago
    > I think you might be over estimating how much the British care about having/not having an empire. Even if the linked piece is correct (tending to agree somewhat), it is written in a modern context with respect to Brexit. The James Bond novels were created in the early 50's when the empire was still a real thing that was actually breaking up, and before 'multiculturalism' was really a thing in any serious way (see mid 60s-70s-80s for that). Not sure if I agree with the actual point above, but the contexts are certainly different, an adult in early 50's Britain certainly would need to psychologically adjust to a shifting national identity, whether they cared for empire or not..
Spooky23 9y ago
James Bond is child's play. 24 was straight up propaganda. Just about every cop show on TV includes a SWAT style raid by Federal or NYPD law enforcement.
tootie 9y ago
Being patriotic isn't the same as being propaganda. Those movies are cool and people like them. Probably for the same reasons they're susceptible to propaganda. It's not a conspiracy, they just found a formula to make money.
- youdontknowtho 9y ago
  While being patriotic and emphasizing the good that the military do they often also portray civilian government as ineffective, out of touch, overpaid, etc. The thing that bothers me is that its an inherently right wing message.
deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

melling 9y ago

This was documented 30 years ago after the release of Top Gun. http://articles.latimes.com/1986-07-05/entertainment/ca-20403_1_top-gun http://articles.latimes.com/1986-07-05/entertainment/ca-2040... Not sure why you wouldn't illustrate your argument with this information.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

zzzcpan 9y ago

Nah, I'm pretty sure everyone familiar with the subject knows that movie industry is an effective propaganda tool and has been used for this since forever for everything: military, police, democratic values. You just can't hide propaganda even if you want to.

mistermann 9y ago
On the contrary, in my experience most people believe that propoganda being used within western countries is a conspiracy theory.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- fixermark 9y ago
  I suspect people assume propaganda is only propaganda if there's a centralized "Ministry of Truth" that (a) has one coherent message, (b) is controlled top-down from a central authority, and (c) has police authority to silence deviations from the playbook by force. As with so much in Western capitalist democracy, America's style of propaganda doesn't fit that authoritarian rubric, but it ends up having similar effect. Major differences are (a) different departments of the US government are protecting their own interests; to the extent the message is "one coherent", it's the principles baked into the institutions, (b) control is decentralized (every department has its own PR budget), and (c) rather than coercion by force, it's coercion by incentive; if you want the opportunity to get your movie "super right" by having professional on-site advisors or access to authentic hardware, you play by the providers' game (and you do want that, because you believe your audience wants that).
  - scalio 9y ago
    House of Cards made me realize something very self-evident: the baddies in "realistic" entertainment media do not reflect the baddies in real life (ditto for the good guys, for that matter). I saw one day that I was conflating real world and HoC politics. Not the actual events, but rather how the different actors got or lost their way. Since I don't know what's going on behind the curtains, I started filling that gap in real-world knowledge with constructions based on the personal politics portrayed in HoC. Now, I try to be as suspicious as sanely possible of anything even remotely tied to politics, and yet it took me a month to notice my error. What happens in minds that don't? I suspect they imagine the real world functions like the dream worlds created in studios. I think that's the insidiousness of propaganda you're describing.
    - mistermann 9y ago
      > What happens in minds that don't? You get our current surreal, completely separated from reality political climate.
chippy 9y ago
but it's yes, most people are not familiar with the subject. And you can hide propaganda. Only a very few people are familiar with what goes on. It needs journalism similar to the featured article to raise the awareness of more people. Consider that idea flawed? Then think about Snowden's revelations and the comments on HN before and afterwards.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

That's how you know the propaganda's working, when it becomes part of daily life and people deny it's propaganda. Probably also because they have other associations with the word.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

treebeard901 9y ago

James Bond is essentially a franchise built around the psychological need to cope with the collapse of the British empire and all of the associated loss of status that goes with it. In other words, you are correct, Bond movies do not try to hide their nationalism. This is no great revelation.

subsubsub 9y ago
I think you might be over estimating how much the British care about having/not having an empire. If you can get around the paywall, this might be worth a read: https://www.ft.com/content/a9c45baa-1dc6-11e7-b7d3-163f5a7f229c https://www.ft.com/content/a9c45baa-1dc6-11e7-b7d3-163f5a7f2...
- fosco 9y ago
  Thank you for sharing this, I was able to get the cache [0] I look forward to the following "The terminal point of empire is introspection, not a restless desire to do it all over again. " [0] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iE3HThFMctEJ:https://www.ft.com/content/a9c45baa-1dc6-11e7-b7d3-163f5a7f229c%3Fmhq5j%3De1+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iE3HTh...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- cat199 9y ago
  > I think you might be over estimating how much the British care about having/not having an empire. Even if the linked piece is correct (tending to agree somewhat), it is written in a modern context with respect to Brexit. The James Bond novels were created in the early 50's when the empire was still a real thing that was actually breaking up, and before 'multiculturalism' was really a thing in any serious way (see mid 60s-70s-80s for that). Not sure if I agree with the actual point above, but the contexts are certainly different, an adult in early 50's Britain certainly would need to psychologically adjust to a shifting national identity, whether they cared for empire or not..

Spooky23 9y ago

James Bond is child's play. 24 was straight up propaganda. Just about every cop show on TV includes a SWAT style raid by Federal or NYPD law enforcement.

tootie 9y ago

Being patriotic isn't the same as being propaganda. Those movies are cool and people like them. Probably for the same reasons they're susceptible to propaganda. It's not a conspiracy, they just found a formula to make money.

youdontknowtho 9y ago
While being patriotic and emphasizing the good that the military do they often also portray civilian government as ineffective, out of touch, overpaid, etc. The thing that bothers me is that its an inherently right wing message.

deleted 9y ago

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