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OK. Sure. Unenforceable in California. Now what about the other 49 states? My buddy in Pennsylvania couldn't get a job at the Apple Store because of a non comp

OK. Sure. Unenforceable in California. Now what about the other 49 states? My buddy in Pennsylvania couldn't get a job at the Apple Store because of a non compete with Best Buy. This extends beyond the bubble of the bay area and even tech. It's a problem in virtually any industry, anywhere.

jaredklewis 9y ago
IANAL, but I doubt your friend's non-compete with Best Buy was enforceable, unless of course he was dealing with trade secrets or managing long term sales relationships. I imagine the idea of a ordinary floor rep dealing with trade secrets would raise some eyebrows at court. http://www.beckreedriden.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/noncompetes-50-state-survey-chart-20170204.pdf http://www.beckreedriden.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/nonc...
- bittermang 9y ago
  I also doubt an ordinary floor rep has the ability to press a case like that to court. Lawyers aren't free.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Would Best Buy really sue an ordinary floor rep, though?
    - lovich 9y ago
      To intimidate all the other employees? I'd believe it. Companies do act similarly when they go after individuals or mom and pop stores for trademark infrigement
      - pmiller2 9y ago
        Trademark infringement is a little different, because a company has to protect its mark to avoid losing it.
    - lazulicurio 9y ago
      They'd probably just write a threatening letter, and that would be enough for the Apple Store to fire the friend. Unless you're high enough in the food chain, a company would rather drop you than deal with the potential trouble (even if the threat is completely bogus).
    - masklinn 9y ago
      It's a company with $40bn revenue, you better believe they have a fleet of lawyers on retainer, they've got little reason to not make use of those lawyers.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  I'm kind of picturing a B2B sales person maybe? I really can't see a company the size of Best Buy going to that length for a regular floor rep. Maybe a service tech? Even then that seems a stretch.
  - bittermang 9y ago
    Nope. He was a regular floor guy who sometimes worked in the Geek Squad department. He was pursuing an opportunity at Apple because the pay was better. When Apple learned he was currently employed at Best Buy, they basically ceased communications citing the non compete with Best Buy. The situation was probably complicated by Apple's mini Apple Store installments inside of Best Buy at the time, which I hear were sometimes staffed by Apple employees, not people on Best Buy's clock. Still, in the end, he missed out on working at a different store with more pay, because of non compete agreements and two mega corporations throwing their weight around.
    - FussyZeus 9y ago
      That is utterly horrifying.
masklinn 9y ago
> Now what about the other 49 states? According to the wiki, * almost entirely void in California, Montana, North Dakota, and Oklahoma * since mid-2015, forbidden for tech businesses in Hawaii (Act 158, tech businesses being defined as "a trade or business that derives the majority of its gross income from the sale or license of products or services resulting from its software development or information technology development, or both" but excluding "standard practice" of broadcast and telco) * limited to 1 year for those entered into in Utah after May 2016 For the rest, it seems at best they're generally subject to "reasonableness" criteria but chances are you'll have to fight it in court, or may lose employment because the new employer does not want to take the risk barring a release. That looks to be the case in Pennsylvania.
- pmiller2 9y ago
  Let's not let Hawaii and Utah off the hook. It's great that software businesses are excluded from noncompete clauses in Hawaii, but it's still a problem when the local Jimmy John's can prevent its employees from working at Subway. Arguably it's worse in a place like Hawaii than in the continental US, because some noncompete are distance-limited, which becomes a problem when the state is nothing more than an island chain. Utah's one year limit is only acceptable in my mind if they require the company enforcing such agreement to pay the former employee for the time they can't work. Otherwise, a megacorp like Google can probably block one's employment in just about every technology-related field.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > Let's not let Hawaii and Utah off the hook. True, they're somewhat less bad than the others but they're by no means good. > Arguably it's worse in a place like Hawaii than in the continental US, because some noncompete are distance-limited, which becomes a problem when the state is nothing more than an island chain. In fact it's exactly the reasoning they used for the tech exemption. > Utah's one year limit is only acceptable in my mind if they require the company enforcing such agreement to pay the former employee for the time they can't work. True, the Utah bill does not require compensation for the duration of the agreement only that it can not exceed one year and employer liability (arbitration costs, attorney and court costs and actual damages) if an employee sues and the non-compete is found unenforceable.
FussyZeus 9y ago
Does anyone have some examples of a company successfully using an NC contract? Aside of the examples listed above where they are legitimate, I mean a regular-Joe type worker who transitioned from one company to another and was successfully sued for breach of NC.
- hluska 9y ago
  Here's a story about a journalist who was hurt by a non compete: https://bol.bna.com/how-a-legal-journalist-got-fired-for-a-non-compete/ https://bol.bna.com/how-a-legal-journalist-got-fired-for-a-n...
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    It's relevant but not really what I was looking for, I mean one that actually went to court. I do find it somewhat sad though that a company with the resources of Reuters wouldn't be willing to go to bat for an employee. Seems like employees are so interchangeable these days that businesses can openly not give a fuck about them, just can the ones who present mild legal issues and move on to the next ones.
    - x0x0 9y ago
      Here's a recent example https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-sues-former-aws-vp-non-compete-deal-smartsheet-calls-claim-new-product-chief-enormous-overreach/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-sues-former-aws-vp-non-... I personally lost a job in NYC post signed offer because counsel at the new company felt that, since both companies were in adtech (though in different verticals), the new company infringed the non-compete. And it apparently wasn't worth the fight. edit: the lawsuit was later dropped https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-resolves-contentious-non-compete-lawsuit-former-aws-executive-left-new-job-smartsheet/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-resolves-contentious-no... I doubt amazon refunded the probably $5k+ Gene Farrell spent in the meantime though.

jaredklewis 9y ago

IANAL, but I doubt your friend's non-compete with Best Buy was enforceable, unless of course he was dealing with trade secrets or managing long term sales relationships. I imagine the idea of a ordinary floor rep dealing with trade secrets would raise some eyebrows at court. http://www.beckreedriden.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/noncompetes-50-state-survey-chart-20170204.pdf http://www.beckreedriden.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/nonc...

bittermang 9y ago
I also doubt an ordinary floor rep has the ability to press a case like that to court. Lawyers aren't free.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Would Best Buy really sue an ordinary floor rep, though?
  - lovich 9y ago
    To intimidate all the other employees? I'd believe it. Companies do act similarly when they go after individuals or mom and pop stores for trademark infrigement
    - pmiller2 9y ago
      Trademark infringement is a little different, because a company has to protect its mark to avoid losing it.
  - lazulicurio 9y ago
    They'd probably just write a threatening letter, and that would be enough for the Apple Store to fire the friend. Unless you're high enough in the food chain, a company would rather drop you than deal with the potential trouble (even if the threat is completely bogus).
  - masklinn 9y ago
    It's a company with $40bn revenue, you better believe they have a fleet of lawyers on retainer, they've got little reason to not make use of those lawyers.
FussyZeus 9y ago
I'm kind of picturing a B2B sales person maybe? I really can't see a company the size of Best Buy going to that length for a regular floor rep. Maybe a service tech? Even then that seems a stretch.
- bittermang 9y ago
  Nope. He was a regular floor guy who sometimes worked in the Geek Squad department. He was pursuing an opportunity at Apple because the pay was better. When Apple learned he was currently employed at Best Buy, they basically ceased communications citing the non compete with Best Buy. The situation was probably complicated by Apple's mini Apple Store installments inside of Best Buy at the time, which I hear were sometimes staffed by Apple employees, not people on Best Buy's clock. Still, in the end, he missed out on working at a different store with more pay, because of non compete agreements and two mega corporations throwing their weight around.
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    That is utterly horrifying.

masklinn 9y ago

> Now what about the other 49 states? According to the wiki, * almost entirely void in California, Montana, North Dakota, and Oklahoma * since mid-2015, forbidden for tech businesses in Hawaii (Act 158, tech businesses being defined as "a trade or business that derives the majority of its gross income from the sale or license of products or services resulting from its software development or information technology development, or both" but excluding "standard practice" of broadcast and telco) * limited to 1 year for those entered into in Utah after May 2016 For the rest, it seems at best they're generally subject to "reasonableness" criteria but chances are you'll have to fight it in court, or may lose employment because the new employer does not want to take the risk barring a release. That looks to be the case in Pennsylvania.

pmiller2 9y ago
Let's not let Hawaii and Utah off the hook. It's great that software businesses are excluded from noncompete clauses in Hawaii, but it's still a problem when the local Jimmy John's can prevent its employees from working at Subway. Arguably it's worse in a place like Hawaii than in the continental US, because some noncompete are distance-limited, which becomes a problem when the state is nothing more than an island chain. Utah's one year limit is only acceptable in my mind if they require the company enforcing such agreement to pay the former employee for the time they can't work. Otherwise, a megacorp like Google can probably block one's employment in just about every technology-related field.
- masklinn 9y ago
  > Let's not let Hawaii and Utah off the hook. True, they're somewhat less bad than the others but they're by no means good. > Arguably it's worse in a place like Hawaii than in the continental US, because some noncompete are distance-limited, which becomes a problem when the state is nothing more than an island chain. In fact it's exactly the reasoning they used for the tech exemption. > Utah's one year limit is only acceptable in my mind if they require the company enforcing such agreement to pay the former employee for the time they can't work. True, the Utah bill does not require compensation for the duration of the agreement only that it can not exceed one year and employer liability (arbitration costs, attorney and court costs and actual damages) if an employee sues and the non-compete is found unenforceable.

FussyZeus 9y ago

Does anyone have some examples of a company successfully using an NC contract? Aside of the examples listed above where they are legitimate, I mean a regular-Joe type worker who transitioned from one company to another and was successfully sued for breach of NC.

hluska 9y ago
Here's a story about a journalist who was hurt by a non compete: https://bol.bna.com/how-a-legal-journalist-got-fired-for-a-non-compete/ https://bol.bna.com/how-a-legal-journalist-got-fired-for-a-n...
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  It's relevant but not really what I was looking for, I mean one that actually went to court. I do find it somewhat sad though that a company with the resources of Reuters wouldn't be willing to go to bat for an employee. Seems like employees are so interchangeable these days that businesses can openly not give a fuck about them, just can the ones who present mild legal issues and move on to the next ones.
  - x0x0 9y ago
    Here's a recent example https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-sues-former-aws-vp-non-compete-deal-smartsheet-calls-claim-new-product-chief-enormous-overreach/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-sues-former-aws-vp-non-... I personally lost a job in NYC post signed offer because counsel at the new company felt that, since both companies were in adtech (though in different verticals), the new company infringed the non-compete. And it apparently wasn't worth the fight. edit: the lawsuit was later dropped https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-resolves-contentious-non-compete-lawsuit-former-aws-executive-left-new-job-smartsheet/ https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-resolves-contentious-no... I doubt amazon refunded the probably $5k+ Gene Farrell spent in the meantime though.