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I dont think that Switzerland is more expensive than say San Francisco... While it is true that is one of the most expensive European countries the cost of liv

by siscia 9y ago

I dont think that Switzerland is more expensive than say San Francisco... While it is true that is one of the most expensive European countries the cost of living is very close to the one in the bay area...

fla 9y ago
It is not much a matter of cost of living but rather cost of the Swiss Franc versus other currencies. Currently, the swiss Franc is very strong, therefore making any Swiss product expensive to the exterior. It can become a huge problem for an economy based on trading with neighbors.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > It can become a huge problem for an economy based on trading with neighbors. Exactly. Switzerland has just 8.5M people living there, while the US has 322M and Germany 82M. If Germany were expensive, for example, it'd still have a sizable inner-country market while Switzerland does not.
  - remline 9y ago
    It changes what you try to do, but Switzerland and Germany isn't all that different from Silicon Valley and the US. You use premium resources in Switzerland and try to sell German (or EU) resources back upon lower markets at a high enough volume and mark up to make the high market costs incidental.
  - throwawaymanbot 9y ago
    The EU has 510 Million.
- siscia 9y ago
  Actually, the Swiss franc is at one of its lowest points in the 10Y view [1] A Swiss franc is traded at roughly 1.09 Euros, I would say significant, sure, but not a deal breaker in high-tech industries. If we were talking about commoditized products I would have to agree but in our industries this is just not the case. [1]: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=CHF&view=10Y http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=CHF&view=10Y
  - 1wd 9y ago
    It's the other way around: EUR/CHF=1.09 means 1EUR=1.09CHF. > [2011 to 2015] the Euro was exchanging [at] CHF1.20. [Then] the exchange rate stabilised to between CHF1.05 and CHF1.08 to the Euro, due in large part to further intervention from the SNB which discreetly set about buying up foreign currency to ensure the franc did [rise to] new heights https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/money--money--money_swiss-economy-slowly-recovering-from-exchange-rate-shock/42799542 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/money--money--money_sw...
    - siscia 9y ago
      Yeah sorry... Still my point holds...
      - ponyfleisch 9y ago
        > Yeah sorry... Still my point holds... not really, no. the opposite, actually. while not an all time high, it is pretty high in the 10 year context and it did affect export industries.
        siscia 9y ago
        What industries where effected the most?
        1wd 9y ago
        Mechanical and electrical engineering industries were seriously affected, according to Swissmem: https://www.swissmem.ch/en/news-medien/news/mem-industrie-die-frankenstaerke-hinterlaesst-deutliche-spuren.html https://www.swissmem.ch/en/news-medien/news/mem-industrie-di... According to Credit Suisse, "nearly all sectors of industry are affected", especially the Mechanical Engineering industry, but also Metals and Food Industries, Hotels, Catering and Retailing: https://www.credit-suisse.com/ch/en/articles/articles/news-and-expertise/2015/03/en/strong-swiss-franc-hitting-industry-commerce-and-hotels.html https://www.credit-suisse.com/ch/en/articles/articles/news-a...
- likelynew 9y ago
  Start-ups mostly do not generate profits. Yeah, losses might increase but who in start-ups care about say 5% less revenue due to currency.
sebgr 9y ago
I can confirm. Just moved from Zurich to San Francisco. Pretty much everything except rent is cheaper in San Francisco (food can be up to half price of what I paid in Zurich) but rent being such a major expense, it ends up being similar. Salaries are a bit higher in Switzerland though so one would save more on average there.
- malthaus 9y ago
  And taxes are a lot lower!
geff82 9y ago
Relative to the average income, Switzerland has rather unexpensive rents. Of course, in absolute terms, cost of living might still might make your runway on the same budget shorter compared to Berlin.
- remline 9y ago
  Average ongoing rents are relatively ok, but bringing in new people often means paying top market prices, they can be double to quadruple an average ongoing rent.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
matttproud 9y ago
CH is cheaper cost-of-living-wise than Bay Area at-large. I formerly lived in the Bay Area and now live/work in Zürich. When you throw having a child into the equation, Zürich is hands-down cheaper and better than West Coast. No more worrying about what zip code you live in for a decent school district, etc. Your earnings go much further here. This is an expensive place to visit as an outsider but cheap place to live and work. Let's not forget tax efficiency, either. But, hey, the Helvetic Confederation isn't for everyone, and I'm OK with that.

by siscia 9y ago

fla 9y ago

It is not much a matter of cost of living but rather cost of the Swiss Franc versus other currencies. Currently, the swiss Franc is very strong, therefore making any Swiss product expensive to the exterior. It can become a huge problem for an economy based on trading with neighbors.

mschuster91 9y ago
> It can become a huge problem for an economy based on trading with neighbors. Exactly. Switzerland has just 8.5M people living there, while the US has 322M and Germany 82M. If Germany were expensive, for example, it'd still have a sizable inner-country market while Switzerland does not.
- remline 9y ago
  It changes what you try to do, but Switzerland and Germany isn't all that different from Silicon Valley and the US. You use premium resources in Switzerland and try to sell German (or EU) resources back upon lower markets at a high enough volume and mark up to make the high market costs incidental.
- throwawaymanbot 9y ago
  The EU has 510 Million.
siscia 9y ago
Actually, the Swiss franc is at one of its lowest points in the 10Y view [1] A Swiss franc is traded at roughly 1.09 Euros, I would say significant, sure, but not a deal breaker in high-tech industries. If we were talking about commoditized products I would have to agree but in our industries this is just not the case. [1]: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=CHF&view=10Y http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=CHF&view=10Y
- 1wd 9y ago
  It's the other way around: EUR/CHF=1.09 means 1EUR=1.09CHF. > [2011 to 2015] the Euro was exchanging [at] CHF1.20. [Then] the exchange rate stabilised to between CHF1.05 and CHF1.08 to the Euro, due in large part to further intervention from the SNB which discreetly set about buying up foreign currency to ensure the franc did [rise to] new heights https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/money--money--money_swiss-economy-slowly-recovering-from-exchange-rate-shock/42799542 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/money--money--money_sw...
  - siscia 9y ago
    Yeah sorry... Still my point holds...
    - ponyfleisch 9y ago
      > Yeah sorry... Still my point holds... not really, no. the opposite, actually. while not an all time high, it is pretty high in the 10 year context and it did affect export industries.
      - siscia 9y ago
        What industries where effected the most?
        1wd 9y ago
        Mechanical and electrical engineering industries were seriously affected, according to Swissmem: https://www.swissmem.ch/en/news-medien/news/mem-industrie-die-frankenstaerke-hinterlaesst-deutliche-spuren.html https://www.swissmem.ch/en/news-medien/news/mem-industrie-di... According to Credit Suisse, "nearly all sectors of industry are affected", especially the Mechanical Engineering industry, but also Metals and Food Industries, Hotels, Catering and Retailing: https://www.credit-suisse.com/ch/en/articles/articles/news-and-expertise/2015/03/en/strong-swiss-franc-hitting-industry-commerce-and-hotels.html https://www.credit-suisse.com/ch/en/articles/articles/news-a...
likelynew 9y ago
Start-ups mostly do not generate profits. Yeah, losses might increase but who in start-ups care about say 5% less revenue due to currency.

sebgr 9y ago

I can confirm. Just moved from Zurich to San Francisco. Pretty much everything except rent is cheaper in San Francisco (food can be up to half price of what I paid in Zurich) but rent being such a major expense, it ends up being similar. Salaries are a bit higher in Switzerland though so one would save more on average there.

malthaus 9y ago
And taxes are a lot lower!

geff82 9y ago

Relative to the average income, Switzerland has rather unexpensive rents. Of course, in absolute terms, cost of living might still might make your runway on the same budget shorter compared to Berlin.

remline 9y ago
Average ongoing rents are relatively ok, but bringing in new people often means paying top market prices, they can be double to quadruple an average ongoing rent.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

matttproud 9y ago

CH is cheaper cost-of-living-wise than Bay Area at-large. I formerly lived in the Bay Area and now live/work in Zürich. When you throw having a child into the equation, Zürich is hands-down cheaper and better than West Coast. No more worrying about what zip code you live in for a decent school district, etc. Your earnings go much further here. This is an expensive place to visit as an outsider but cheap place to live and work. Let's not forget tax efficiency, either. But, hey, the Helvetic Confederation isn't for everyone, and I'm OK with that.