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What is the saying, "Cutting off the nose to spite the face"? As Europe continues to add laws and regulations targeted at American tech companies they will furt

What is the saying, "Cutting off the nose to spite the face"? As Europe continues to add laws and regulations targeted at American tech companies they will further prevent any innovative businesses from growing and thriving in Europe. Also before you respond, I am really not interested in legalist arguments, especially when the laws themselves were designed by and for entrenched interests. It's been 17 years since the internet has become widespread, how many successful information technology companies have come from Europe, a continent with 500 million people, many of them well educated? Maybe it's time to look inward.

celticninja 9y ago
It's not anti American though, it just so happens that US firms are the first of these types of companies. The rulings that are set apply to all companies equally so Chinese and European firms are bound by the same rules.
- ballenf 9y ago
  True: it's just anti-progress or at least anti-anything-that-doesn't-fit-a-hundred-plus-year-old-notion-of-how-things-should-work.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    anti-worker, anti-customer, anti-morals. Let Uber die by a thousand cuts.
    - stale2002 9y ago
      Pro-consumer. Consumers overwhelming support ridesharing because of how cheap it is. Also, if a consumer doesn't like these service, they are free to use any number of other transportation services. That is what this fight is about. Letting consumers decide for themselves which services they prefer.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        Consumers would support slavery if it was legal, hence labor laws and regulations. Just because you're a tech platform doesn't mean you're a special snowflake. Consumers may choose from any service that follows regulations set forth by government.
      - celticninja 9y ago
        Here's the thing, you can be pro-consumer without being anti-worker. Uber just haven't figured out how to do that.
- friedman23 9y ago
  My comment was less about this specific ruling and more about the trend. In the US, uber was practically illegal just like Europe. The US made it legal (or looked the other way) while Europe (and much of the rest of the world) decided to clamp down on the service with regulations without ever reflecting on whether the laws themselves were beneficial in the first place. At least in the US, much of the fear mongering over the possible outcomes of Uber drivers not being properly licensed never came to pass.
  - gsnedders 9y ago
    Note there's all kinds of regulations affecting taxis in Europe: some have clamped down heavily, and others Uber operates totally above the law in.
    - celticninja 9y ago
      Do you mean within the law? Evidently they have acted like they are above the law in most jurisdictions until legal rulings have required them to comply.
      - gsnedders 9y ago
        Uh, yes!
  - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
    It just depends on how the company deals with it. AirBnB for instance is working with regulators which cannot be said about Uber.
supergirl 9y ago
> innovative businesses what's innovative about pirate taxis? they're as old as taxis
pilsetnieks 9y ago
There are Uber-like services in Europe that somehow still manage to comply with the law, while bringing the same benefits to the end user. You don't have to ride roughshod over regulations and worker protections to be innovative and thriving.
- imrehg 9y ago
  I'd be curious to know any examples that really bring the same benefits (usability and features mostly, less about the price), I was looking for them, and couldn't find any (e.g. in London at the moment). Otherwise it's just hand waving argument...
  - jerven 9y ago
    I use both Uber and TaxiPhone app in Geneva Switzerland. The taxi phone app is better because it is more honest, no fake cars in the TaxiPhone app driving "in the middle of lake geneva (along the pedestrian ferry routes)" while the Uber app has dubious arrival times and while payment is straightforward nothing about the app is really better. While the taxiphone app is branded Geneva it also works in other cities. Basically, it is a locally branded app but the infra is in 42 cities/regions and works in the "foreign" ones. Uber is a bit cheaper during the night, but not always during the day and certainly not during rush hours in the city center. Address search could be a bit better but otherwise it is as good as the uber one. At least it doesn't have this annoying inbuilt Dev recruitment tool, that stupidity almost ruined the day of a blind developer I know. When booking a ride ahead of time e.g. to the airport with family the taxiphone website is best. You can arrange child seats etc.. and they will have them and arrive on time.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    Stockholm has dozens of taxi companies and strict regulations (special training required etc, safety and insurance regulations, etc). All the major companies, perhaps the top 10 - have apps with pre-paying and hailing or pre-booking in the app. I haven't called a taxi by phone or hailed one on the street for years. I can't find when the first company launched their app, but I'm pretty sure I hadn't heard the name Uber when they did (which doesn't mean Uber weren't first - just that I hadn't heard of them because they didn't exist in Sweden then). There are obviously no taxi medallions or similar, so anyone is free to start a taxi service and the cost for doing so is low. Usually you'd join one of the bigger players to be connected to a booking central and app service but you can just get a license and start driving. So the bottom line is - in ANY city where there isn't a US-style medallion bureaucracy surrounding taxis I just don't see the point of Uber. Uber is Taxi. If there are 100 taxi companies with apps, then with Uber they are 101. US cities (and others worldwide) should just buy back all medallions at the last transfer price and then allow free competition.
Oletros 9y ago
> As Europe continues to add laws and regulations targeted at American tech companies Any example of those laws and regulations?
izacus 9y ago
I think we'll be fine without "innovation" that's innovate exclusively by breaking basic safety and labour laws. Taxi services across EU (at least in my experience) are usually of significanly better quality than those in US. Well, at least I've yet to meet a cab smelling of piss and shit as opposed to SF.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Which basic safety laws have Uber broken in the EU?
  - izacus 9y ago
    Depending on the country - requirement for driver to have a commercial driving license, first aid training and more detailed car safety checks required for taxi services.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
kochthesecond 9y ago
I am inclined to agree with you, but most of EU countries had working alternatives to Uber, albeit more local, that DO follow the law. It seems like the state of taxi services in the US somehow self regulated out competition?
will_brown 9y ago
As a member of the tech/HN community it's very easy to take your position about laws benefiting the entrenched market incumbents, but you can't ignore tech has those very same lobbying/legal protections. For example, take the New York market with the limited number of taxi medallions, prior to Uber there was stricter regulation and enforcement against individual drivers illegally operating rides for hire. Though when Uber comes along they facilitate these types of illegal ride for hire operations all over the country, even in many jurisdictions where Uber drivers are arrested for illegal operations Uber itself never has to answer for their roll they simply pay a lawyer of their choice to represent the drivers in these cases in order to protect Uber's interest not the driver. Apply the same organization to any other illegal activity (drugs, prostitution, etc...) it becomes clear very quick Uber has been legally protected even though their driver continue(d) collecting fines and arrests. And all these great US internet companies you speak of I'm pretty sure are global companies and have global headquarters in Europe (Ireland) specifically in order to avoid pay US taxes, but again are protected by laws designed to protect their entrenched interests.
- stale2002 9y ago
  The USA has some of the same regulations, sure, but when it became clear that they were outdated, most cities got rid of them. You can get an uber in any major city in the USA, now. The best way to get rid of bad laws is to break them.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  You start by saying "the New York market" which presumably you mean New York City by citing taxi medallions. Then you say >"when Uber comes along they facilitate these types of illegal ride for hire operations all over the country" How did you go from Uber operating in NYC resulting in "facilitating illegal ride for hire operations all over the country in your next sentence?" Uber didn't start in NYC. I don't see the connection, can you explain? Illegal ride for hire in NYC are what are informally known as "Gypsy Cabs"(not a politically correct term but its not mine term.) I have not seen or heard any evidence that the presence of these has increased with the introduction of Uber. Please provide a citation. I am quite doubtful that given the availability now of Uber/Lyft along with the already existing licensed yellow cabs, green cabs and livery cabs that people are at all inclined to elect to take an unlicensed cab.
collyw 9y ago
http://tech.eu/features/186/ignorance-is-remiss/ http://tech.eu/features/186/ignorance-is-remiss/ MySQL is another one not on that list but I guess thats because Oracle bought them over.
alkonaut 9y ago
Names such as Battlefield, Candy Crush, Angry Birds and Minecraft are known internationally now, right? There are more studios per capita in the nordics than anywhere else. Obviously the games industry is just one niche but those are examples of somewhat successful companies.
sharkmerry 9y ago
Perhaps the laws in the US are too lenient? -Facebook makes it nearly impossible to delete your account permanently or reactivates on accidental clicks from 3rd party websites(which increases their metrics), -You can be opted in for email messaging without you opting in explicitly (increases advertising companies "reach"), -Uber just ignored regulations it didnt like, or would be detrimental to their bottom line if they actually followed them. This mentality is wholly rewarded in the US, that isnt necessarily a good thing.

celticninja 9y ago

It's not anti American though, it just so happens that US firms are the first of these types of companies. The rulings that are set apply to all companies equally so Chinese and European firms are bound by the same rules.

ballenf 9y ago
True: it's just anti-progress or at least anti-anything-that-doesn't-fit-a-hundred-plus-year-old-notion-of-how-things-should-work.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  anti-worker, anti-customer, anti-morals. Let Uber die by a thousand cuts.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Pro-consumer. Consumers overwhelming support ridesharing because of how cheap it is. Also, if a consumer doesn't like these service, they are free to use any number of other transportation services. That is what this fight is about. Letting consumers decide for themselves which services they prefer.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      Consumers would support slavery if it was legal, hence labor laws and regulations. Just because you're a tech platform doesn't mean you're a special snowflake. Consumers may choose from any service that follows regulations set forth by government.
    - celticninja 9y ago
      Here's the thing, you can be pro-consumer without being anti-worker. Uber just haven't figured out how to do that.
friedman23 9y ago
My comment was less about this specific ruling and more about the trend. In the US, uber was practically illegal just like Europe. The US made it legal (or looked the other way) while Europe (and much of the rest of the world) decided to clamp down on the service with regulations without ever reflecting on whether the laws themselves were beneficial in the first place. At least in the US, much of the fear mongering over the possible outcomes of Uber drivers not being properly licensed never came to pass.
- gsnedders 9y ago
  Note there's all kinds of regulations affecting taxis in Europe: some have clamped down heavily, and others Uber operates totally above the law in.
  - celticninja 9y ago
    Do you mean within the law? Evidently they have acted like they are above the law in most jurisdictions until legal rulings have required them to comply.
    - gsnedders 9y ago
      Uh, yes!
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  It just depends on how the company deals with it. AirBnB for instance is working with regulators which cannot be said about Uber.

supergirl 9y ago

> innovative businesses what's innovative about pirate taxis? they're as old as taxis

pilsetnieks 9y ago

There are Uber-like services in Europe that somehow still manage to comply with the law, while bringing the same benefits to the end user. You don't have to ride roughshod over regulations and worker protections to be innovative and thriving.

imrehg 9y ago
I'd be curious to know any examples that really bring the same benefits (usability and features mostly, less about the price), I was looking for them, and couldn't find any (e.g. in London at the moment). Otherwise it's just hand waving argument...
- jerven 9y ago
  I use both Uber and TaxiPhone app in Geneva Switzerland. The taxi phone app is better because it is more honest, no fake cars in the TaxiPhone app driving "in the middle of lake geneva (along the pedestrian ferry routes)" while the Uber app has dubious arrival times and while payment is straightforward nothing about the app is really better. While the taxiphone app is branded Geneva it also works in other cities. Basically, it is a locally branded app but the infra is in 42 cities/regions and works in the "foreign" ones. Uber is a bit cheaper during the night, but not always during the day and certainly not during rush hours in the city center. Address search could be a bit better but otherwise it is as good as the uber one. At least it doesn't have this annoying inbuilt Dev recruitment tool, that stupidity almost ruined the day of a blind developer I know. When booking a ride ahead of time e.g. to the airport with family the taxiphone website is best. You can arrange child seats etc.. and they will have them and arrive on time.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  Stockholm has dozens of taxi companies and strict regulations (special training required etc, safety and insurance regulations, etc). All the major companies, perhaps the top 10 - have apps with pre-paying and hailing or pre-booking in the app. I haven't called a taxi by phone or hailed one on the street for years. I can't find when the first company launched their app, but I'm pretty sure I hadn't heard the name Uber when they did (which doesn't mean Uber weren't first - just that I hadn't heard of them because they didn't exist in Sweden then). There are obviously no taxi medallions or similar, so anyone is free to start a taxi service and the cost for doing so is low. Usually you'd join one of the bigger players to be connected to a booking central and app service but you can just get a license and start driving. So the bottom line is - in ANY city where there isn't a US-style medallion bureaucracy surrounding taxis I just don't see the point of Uber. Uber is Taxi. If there are 100 taxi companies with apps, then with Uber they are 101. US cities (and others worldwide) should just buy back all medallions at the last transfer price and then allow free competition.

Oletros 9y ago

> As Europe continues to add laws and regulations targeted at American tech companies Any example of those laws and regulations?

izacus 9y ago

I think we'll be fine without "innovation" that's innovate exclusively by breaking basic safety and labour laws. Taxi services across EU (at least in my experience) are usually of significanly better quality than those in US. Well, at least I've yet to meet a cab smelling of piss and shit as opposed to SF.

icebraining 9y ago
Which basic safety laws have Uber broken in the EU?
- izacus 9y ago
  Depending on the country - requirement for driver to have a commercial driving license, first aid training and more detailed car safety checks required for taxi services.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

kochthesecond 9y ago

I am inclined to agree with you, but most of EU countries had working alternatives to Uber, albeit more local, that DO follow the law. It seems like the state of taxi services in the US somehow self regulated out competition?

will_brown 9y ago

As a member of the tech/HN community it's very easy to take your position about laws benefiting the entrenched market incumbents, but you can't ignore tech has those very same lobbying/legal protections. For example, take the New York market with the limited number of taxi medallions, prior to Uber there was stricter regulation and enforcement against individual drivers illegally operating rides for hire. Though when Uber comes along they facilitate these types of illegal ride for hire operations all over the country, even in many jurisdictions where Uber drivers are arrested for illegal operations Uber itself never has to answer for their roll they simply pay a lawyer of their choice to represent the drivers in these cases in order to protect Uber's interest not the driver. Apply the same organization to any other illegal activity (drugs, prostitution, etc...) it becomes clear very quick Uber has been legally protected even though their driver continue(d) collecting fines and arrests. And all these great US internet companies you speak of I'm pretty sure are global companies and have global headquarters in Europe (Ireland) specifically in order to avoid pay US taxes, but again are protected by laws designed to protect their entrenched interests.

stale2002 9y ago
The USA has some of the same regulations, sure, but when it became clear that they were outdated, most cities got rid of them. You can get an uber in any major city in the USA, now. The best way to get rid of bad laws is to break them.
bogomipz 9y ago
You start by saying "the New York market" which presumably you mean New York City by citing taxi medallions. Then you say >"when Uber comes along they facilitate these types of illegal ride for hire operations all over the country" How did you go from Uber operating in NYC resulting in "facilitating illegal ride for hire operations all over the country in your next sentence?" Uber didn't start in NYC. I don't see the connection, can you explain? Illegal ride for hire in NYC are what are informally known as "Gypsy Cabs"(not a politically correct term but its not mine term.) I have not seen or heard any evidence that the presence of these has increased with the introduction of Uber. Please provide a citation. I am quite doubtful that given the availability now of Uber/Lyft along with the already existing licensed yellow cabs, green cabs and livery cabs that people are at all inclined to elect to take an unlicensed cab.

collyw 9y ago

http://tech.eu/features/186/ignorance-is-remiss/ http://tech.eu/features/186/ignorance-is-remiss/ MySQL is another one not on that list but I guess thats because Oracle bought them over.

alkonaut 9y ago

Names such as Battlefield, Candy Crush, Angry Birds and Minecraft are known internationally now, right? There are more studios per capita in the nordics than anywhere else. Obviously the games industry is just one niche but those are examples of somewhat successful companies.

sharkmerry 9y ago

Perhaps the laws in the US are too lenient? -Facebook makes it nearly impossible to delete your account permanently or reactivates on accidental clicks from 3rd party websites(which increases their metrics), -You can be opted in for email messaging without you opting in explicitly (increases advertising companies "reach"), -Uber just ignored regulations it didnt like, or would be detrimental to their bottom line if they actually followed them. This mentality is wholly rewarded in the US, that isnt necessarily a good thing.