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I have experienced similarly persistent (or arguably even more persistent) unwanted sexual advances from other men, but I certainly didn't feel "assaulted". As

I have experienced similarly persistent (or arguably even more persistent) unwanted sexual advances from other men, but I certainly didn't feel "assaulted". As a socially clueless gay man, I was hoping someone could help elucidate the most problematic parts of McClure's behavior here. The two factors that stand out for me are 1) McClure controlled the funding of the agency Yeoh was heading, so he was in a position of power 2) McClure is a man and Yeoh is a woman, so McClure can be assumed to be more physically imposing Would it be correct to say that these two factors are what make McClure's behavior inappropriate? In any other context, I would consider asking someone something a third time after two "no"s to be an example of annoying badgering, but not necessarily harassment.

pvg 9y ago
Would it be correct to say that these two factors are what make McClure's behavior inappropriate? No, it would not be, at all. "At this point, I led him to the door and told him he needs to leave. On the way out, he pushed himself onto me to the point where I was backed into a corner, made contact to kiss me,"
- monfrere 9y ago
  I don't know if anyone will believe me that I'm asking in good faith. But I still think that sentence, as written, could describe a wide range of situations. If it went like: A: Firmly: "You need to leave. Now." B: Shoves A's body multiple times until she is in the opposite corner of the room. Presses his lips to her face without hesitation. I would be mad as A. But if the scenario went more like: A: "I'm tired and it's late. You really gotta go, sorry." (A and B walk to the door. There is a sofa by the door.) B: Leans body toward A's. A: Takes a step back. Is now up against the sofa and the wall. B: Puts hand on A's shoulder and leans in slowly for a kiss. A: Refuses kiss. Here as person A I would simply brush B off as an aggressive suitor, unless the two aggravating circumstances I mentioned above were in play. Please tell me if that is unfair.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - pvg 9y ago
    It's not 'asking in good faith' if you ignore what was described and substitute in some completely different sequence of events that was not.
    - monfrere 9y ago
      With complete sincerity and honesty, I think either sequence of events I described could match what Yeoh wrote. If I said to someone, "You really gotta go, sorry", I might well describe that later to a friend using the words Yeoh used: "I told him he needs to leave." If a guy took two steps right into my personal space as I was up against a sofa and a wall, I might well describe that as "he pushed himself onto me to the point where I was backed into a corner". If a guy put his hand on my shoulder and leaned in for a kiss -- I could see that being what Yeoh described: he "made contact to kiss me". (Frankly, that's not the phrase I would use; it seems vague.)
      - pvg 9y ago
        You keep repeating 'sincerity and honesty' but keep mis-describing what actually happened. This was not 'lean in for a kiss'. He (rather awkwardly) stayed behind after everyone had left. She went out of her way to be a generous host - offering him a place to stay for the night. He immediately abused that offer by propositioning her. When she asked him to leave, he tried to force himself on her. That's what her story says. If you don't believe her, have the decency to say so. But stop trying to say it's anything less than a profound abuse of trust instead of misrepresenting it as 'leaning in for a kiss'.
        monfrere 9y ago
        I believe what she wrote, and I believe you do too, which is why we both keep quoting her. I disagree that either of my imagined scenarios are inconsistent with what she wrote. But thanks anyway for trying to answer my questions.
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alasdair_ 9y ago
It's pretty simple: once you start touching and kissing people that have told you not to, that's assault.
Lazare 9y ago
> In any other context, I would consider asking someone something a third time after two "no"s to be an example of annoying badgering, but not necessarily harassment. You would be incorrect. It's not really a grey area. > I have experienced similarly persistent (or arguably even more persistent) unwanted sexual advances from other men, but I certainly didn't feel "assaulted". Good for you. But legally in the country I live in, what she described was assault. And if you experienced the same thing, it would also be assault. If you didn't feel it was assault, then you don't have to report it, of course, but that doesn't change what it is. When someone says no, you can't decide that what they really meant is "would you please grab me and forcibly kiss me". That is not "annoying badgering".

pvg 9y ago

Would it be correct to say that these two factors are what make McClure's behavior inappropriate? No, it would not be, at all. "At this point, I led him to the door and told him he needs to leave. On the way out, he pushed himself onto me to the point where I was backed into a corner, made contact to kiss me,"

monfrere 9y ago
I don't know if anyone will believe me that I'm asking in good faith. But I still think that sentence, as written, could describe a wide range of situations. If it went like: A: Firmly: "You need to leave. Now." B: Shoves A's body multiple times until she is in the opposite corner of the room. Presses his lips to her face without hesitation. I would be mad as A. But if the scenario went more like: A: "I'm tired and it's late. You really gotta go, sorry." (A and B walk to the door. There is a sofa by the door.) B: Leans body toward A's. A: Takes a step back. Is now up against the sofa and the wall. B: Puts hand on A's shoulder and leans in slowly for a kiss. A: Refuses kiss. Here as person A I would simply brush B off as an aggressive suitor, unless the two aggravating circumstances I mentioned above were in play. Please tell me if that is unfair.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- pvg 9y ago
  It's not 'asking in good faith' if you ignore what was described and substitute in some completely different sequence of events that was not.
  - monfrere 9y ago
    With complete sincerity and honesty, I think either sequence of events I described could match what Yeoh wrote. If I said to someone, "You really gotta go, sorry", I might well describe that later to a friend using the words Yeoh used: "I told him he needs to leave." If a guy took two steps right into my personal space as I was up against a sofa and a wall, I might well describe that as "he pushed himself onto me to the point where I was backed into a corner". If a guy put his hand on my shoulder and leaned in for a kiss -- I could see that being what Yeoh described: he "made contact to kiss me". (Frankly, that's not the phrase I would use; it seems vague.)
    - pvg 9y ago
      You keep repeating 'sincerity and honesty' but keep mis-describing what actually happened. This was not 'lean in for a kiss'. He (rather awkwardly) stayed behind after everyone had left. She went out of her way to be a generous host - offering him a place to stay for the night. He immediately abused that offer by propositioning her. When she asked him to leave, he tried to force himself on her. That's what her story says. If you don't believe her, have the decency to say so. But stop trying to say it's anything less than a profound abuse of trust instead of misrepresenting it as 'leaning in for a kiss'.
      - monfrere 9y ago
        I believe what she wrote, and I believe you do too, which is why we both keep quoting her. I disagree that either of my imagined scenarios are inconsistent with what she wrote. But thanks anyway for trying to answer my questions.

deleted 9y ago

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alasdair_ 9y ago

It's pretty simple: once you start touching and kissing people that have told you not to, that's assault.

Lazare 9y ago

> In any other context, I would consider asking someone something a third time after two "no"s to be an example of annoying badgering, but not necessarily harassment. You would be incorrect. It's not really a grey area. > I have experienced similarly persistent (or arguably even more persistent) unwanted sexual advances from other men, but I certainly didn't feel "assaulted". Good for you. But legally in the country I live in, what she described was assault. And if you experienced the same thing, it would also be assault. If you didn't feel it was assault, then you don't have to report it, of course, but that doesn't change what it is. When someone says no, you can't decide that what they really meant is "would you please grab me and forcibly kiss me". That is not "annoying badgering".