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HN isn't an ideological battleground. In general, it's for whatever gratifies intellectual curiosity. The flagged comments may have contributed information, but

HN isn't an ideological battleground. In general, it's for whatever gratifies intellectual curiosity. The flagged comments may have contributed information, but most of them share a common trait: they're incendiary. The way to introduce a controversial idea on HN is to be substantive and neutral. It's not easy to do. People are generally passionate about their points of view, and I've been guilty of this myself. But the ideal is worth striving for. In particular, complaining about downvotes is also against the rules. I did this the other day and regretted it; it unfairly catapulted my comment to the top of the thread due to the overcorrection, and by then it was too late to edit. It's better to let a comment stand or fall on its own merits, as difficult as that is.

Banthum 9y ago
>The way to introduce a controversial idea on HN is to be substantive and neutral. I agree in principle. But standards should be applied the same way to all comments with regard to viewpoints. What I'm seeing is that the same standards aren't being applied to different viewpoints. An orthodox viewpoint can be written casually, unsourced, tinged with moral judgment, etc, and still get away unflagged and not downvoted. An unorthodox viewpoint will get ripped apart on the tiniest error, missing source, or mis-chosen wordage. I understand people are tribal and some just want to suppress dissent and maintain the power of their orthodoxy. But I also hope a place like HN can rise above such tribalism. (regarding downvote complaints I don't disagree with the general policy.. if you're referring to my comment you replied to here I didn't intend to complain, only to point out the irony and perhaps try to cue some downvoters to consider what they're doing from a further remove).
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  You can see the content of flagged comments by going into your profile settings and turning on the [showdead] option. Currently there are 26 flagged comments, so to pick a few random ones: "By that standard, the only way to never do anything inappropriate is to never do anything." "It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone..." "When your worth is defined solely by how horny you make the opposite sex..." "I cannot understand why sexual harassment takes such a toll on women. I've been sexually harassed by other men before, and somehow it wasn't as big of a problem..." I didn't cherry-pick the above examples; they were just the first few that showed up with Command-F [flagged]. "Incendiary" is still probably the best way to describe these comments, which is why they're flagged. The other reason is shallowness on a controversial topic, which usually leads to flamewars. If you see a comment that breaks a specific guideline in https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html then you're encouraged to flag it. (You need a certain amount of karma to see the flag button.) The main reason that the comments you mention aren't flagged is usually because they don't violate any of the guidelines. The system isn't perfect, but it seems to work remarkably well given the size of HN's audience. Regarding talking about downvotes, I understand and can relate to the point of view. To clarify, I didn't mean anything by the word "complain." The reason to avoid mentioning "downvotes" at all is because (a) talking about downvotes spawns low-quality subthreads almost instantly, and (b) it gives your comment an unfair advantage. HN's voting system fluctuates wildly thanks to the diversity of the people that now have the privilege of downvoting, but in general, high-quality substantive comments tend to rise. If you want to give a few examples of comments you feel were unfairly flagged, or unflagged comments that you feel break the guidelines, I'd be happy to chat about those. (We're currently in a flagged subthread, so there's no harm in continuing our conversation.) EDIT: To address one specific point more thoroughly: An orthodox viewpoint can be written casually, unsourced, tinged with moral judgment, etc, and still get away unflagged and not downvoted. An unorthodox viewpoint will get ripped apart on the tiniest error, missing source, or mis-chosen wordage. Unorthodox, controversial viewpoints are indeed held to a higher standard, but the reason is because it fosters better conversation. For these, HN is optimized for substantive-but-neutral. Deviating from either axis tends to produce flamewars of the worst caliber.
tnone 9y ago
On this topic, it absolutely is. Whenever these threads happen, they go one way or the other. If the all-genders-equal, non-feminist side swings the discussion, the entire thread disappears off the front page, inexplicably sitting at position 500+ with no flagged indicator. The lambdaconf debacle comes to mind, but it's hardly the only example. If the feminist, women-are-victims-side swings the discussion, the thread is left up, full of moral chastising, with a graveyard of flagged comments serving as a warning to the evil dissenters. On this topic, HN is unquestionably biased from the top, and the pretense otherwise is laughably non-credible and deluded. Furthermore, while meta-complaining is against the rules, this rule is again only enforced against those who question the party line, not those lamenting the amount of immoral thought on display. The bigger message being sent is obvious though: men, don't bother apologizing for your missteps or character flaws. Forgiveness is not coming. If a woman got drunk at a guy's house, and was being insistent upon being shown the door, throwing it in her face would be considered cold and insensitive.
- tnone 9y ago
  Here, let me tell you a story. It's past 3am in the big city, I'm returning from a night out. While riding up the elevator, i can't help but notice the guy I'm sharing it with is a sobbing mess. I've never seen him before, but he gets out on my floor and heads in the opposite direction. I go inside, but as I get ready for bed, someone bangs loudly and repeatedly on my door. It's the guy. I hesitate opening. He knocks some more. Worried something bad happened to him, I let him in and ask what's wrong. He's locked out. He quickly gets into a tirade, about how his girlfriend broke up with him. That's why he's drunk. He doesn't know where his keys are but probably left them at a friend's. I feel somewhat cheated for my sympathy, having assumed far worse. Instead it's just self inflicted misery. I listen for a bit but try to make it clear I'd like to go to bed. Spotting a pipe on the coffee table, he suggests we light up instead and I let him crash. I firmly decline. I decide this person is the master of their own destiny, ask them to leave, and suggest they grab a cab or bus to their friend's place. Against much protest, I get him out the door and feel immense relief. If I'd been a woman, just saying I'd felt unsafe would've sufficed. I could've just called the police about this dangerous man banging on my door. Of course, it wasn't a guy knocking. It was a girl. She was drunk out of her mind, ready to get even more wasted, and she made it clear I was the bad guy for not immediately considering her problems mine.

Banthum 9y ago

>The way to introduce a controversial idea on HN is to be substantive and neutral. I agree in principle. But standards should be applied the same way to all comments with regard to viewpoints. What I'm seeing is that the same standards aren't being applied to different viewpoints. An orthodox viewpoint can be written casually, unsourced, tinged with moral judgment, etc, and still get away unflagged and not downvoted. An unorthodox viewpoint will get ripped apart on the tiniest error, missing source, or mis-chosen wordage. I understand people are tribal and some just want to suppress dissent and maintain the power of their orthodoxy. But I also hope a place like HN can rise above such tribalism. (regarding downvote complaints I don't disagree with the general policy.. if you're referring to my comment you replied to here I didn't intend to complain, only to point out the irony and perhaps try to cue some downvoters to consider what they're doing from a further remove).

sillysaurus3 9y ago
You can see the content of flagged comments by going into your profile settings and turning on the [showdead] option. Currently there are 26 flagged comments, so to pick a few random ones: "By that standard, the only way to never do anything inappropriate is to never do anything." "It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone..." "When your worth is defined solely by how horny you make the opposite sex..." "I cannot understand why sexual harassment takes such a toll on women. I've been sexually harassed by other men before, and somehow it wasn't as big of a problem..." I didn't cherry-pick the above examples; they were just the first few that showed up with Command-F [flagged]. "Incendiary" is still probably the best way to describe these comments, which is why they're flagged. The other reason is shallowness on a controversial topic, which usually leads to flamewars. If you see a comment that breaks a specific guideline in https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html then you're encouraged to flag it. (You need a certain amount of karma to see the flag button.) The main reason that the comments you mention aren't flagged is usually because they don't violate any of the guidelines. The system isn't perfect, but it seems to work remarkably well given the size of HN's audience. Regarding talking about downvotes, I understand and can relate to the point of view. To clarify, I didn't mean anything by the word "complain." The reason to avoid mentioning "downvotes" at all is because (a) talking about downvotes spawns low-quality subthreads almost instantly, and (b) it gives your comment an unfair advantage. HN's voting system fluctuates wildly thanks to the diversity of the people that now have the privilege of downvoting, but in general, high-quality substantive comments tend to rise. If you want to give a few examples of comments you feel were unfairly flagged, or unflagged comments that you feel break the guidelines, I'd be happy to chat about those. (We're currently in a flagged subthread, so there's no harm in continuing our conversation.) EDIT: To address one specific point more thoroughly: An orthodox viewpoint can be written casually, unsourced, tinged with moral judgment, etc, and still get away unflagged and not downvoted. An unorthodox viewpoint will get ripped apart on the tiniest error, missing source, or mis-chosen wordage. Unorthodox, controversial viewpoints are indeed held to a higher standard, but the reason is because it fosters better conversation. For these, HN is optimized for substantive-but-neutral. Deviating from either axis tends to produce flamewars of the worst caliber.

tnone 9y ago

On this topic, it absolutely is. Whenever these threads happen, they go one way or the other. If the all-genders-equal, non-feminist side swings the discussion, the entire thread disappears off the front page, inexplicably sitting at position 500+ with no flagged indicator. The lambdaconf debacle comes to mind, but it's hardly the only example. If the feminist, women-are-victims-side swings the discussion, the thread is left up, full of moral chastising, with a graveyard of flagged comments serving as a warning to the evil dissenters. On this topic, HN is unquestionably biased from the top, and the pretense otherwise is laughably non-credible and deluded. Furthermore, while meta-complaining is against the rules, this rule is again only enforced against those who question the party line, not those lamenting the amount of immoral thought on display. The bigger message being sent is obvious though: men, don't bother apologizing for your missteps or character flaws. Forgiveness is not coming. If a woman got drunk at a guy's house, and was being insistent upon being shown the door, throwing it in her face would be considered cold and insensitive.

tnone 9y ago
Here, let me tell you a story. It's past 3am in the big city, I'm returning from a night out. While riding up the elevator, i can't help but notice the guy I'm sharing it with is a sobbing mess. I've never seen him before, but he gets out on my floor and heads in the opposite direction. I go inside, but as I get ready for bed, someone bangs loudly and repeatedly on my door. It's the guy. I hesitate opening. He knocks some more. Worried something bad happened to him, I let him in and ask what's wrong. He's locked out. He quickly gets into a tirade, about how his girlfriend broke up with him. That's why he's drunk. He doesn't know where his keys are but probably left them at a friend's. I feel somewhat cheated for my sympathy, having assumed far worse. Instead it's just self inflicted misery. I listen for a bit but try to make it clear I'd like to go to bed. Spotting a pipe on the coffee table, he suggests we light up instead and I let him crash. I firmly decline. I decide this person is the master of their own destiny, ask them to leave, and suggest they grab a cab or bus to their friend's place. Against much protest, I get him out the door and feel immense relief. If I'd been a woman, just saying I'd felt unsafe would've sufficed. I could've just called the police about this dangerous man banging on my door. Of course, it wasn't a guy knocking. It was a girl. She was drunk out of her mind, ready to get even more wasted, and she made it clear I was the bad guy for not immediately considering her problems mine.