4 ms·

It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone, just for asking a few logical questions on the web. I don't come at this as the pushy sex

It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone, just for asking a few logical questions on the web. I don't come at this as the pushy sexual conqueror you seem to assume. My perspective is from social anxiety. I already am very hesitant to approach women, because everything seems forbidden and inappropriate. What I hear OP saying is that there is nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't find my sexual or romantic propositions inappropriate, which means I'm a sexual harasser and possibly a criminal. The standard of just becoming a person "who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics" is extremely ambitious. I don't think I can reach that in my life time. If you have, congratulations! And even if I can identify a role model like that, how do I find out how he propositions women?

eropple 9y ago
It really, really isn't that complicated, I promise. Step one: communicate your interest politely and ask her on a date. Step two: if you are rebuffed, don't be a jerk. You will notice that nowhere in here is "she will act shocked and think you are a harasser." Because that's not how it actually works, despite the considerable efforts of some folks to convince you that it is. Perhaps you should meditate on why they'd spend so much effort on that.
thaumaturgy 9y ago
I wasn't describing you specifically. Maybe I was unclear, or maybe you're trying to steer a discussion about inequity towards a group of people into a discussion about your discomfort as a non-member of that group. Or maybe both. I also don't think this is the appropriate time and place to write a manual on dating. Here's one hint though: when you meet a nice woman, your first thought shouldn't be, "how do I proposition her?"
pjc50 9y ago
Role models are probably a bad idea; often we find out later that they've been going about it all wrong as well. > nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't find my sexual or romantic propositions inappropriate You can never be sure of anything in human relations. But I think the shorthand approach is to see it from her point of view. Basically, does she have a safe exit? In the situation described there are two ways in which she does not. Firstly, there's a business context - she's worried that if she says "no" firmly enough, it will jeopardize her contract; secondly, there's a physical obstructing of her and an initial refusing to leave her flat (he is eventually persuaded to). Remember also the flip side of this: as a woman, there is nothing she can to do be sure that someone she does actually accept a proposition from isn't a rapist. And if she does, there are people who will blame her for it.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > Role models are probably a bad idea I tried suggesting exactly this - not only down-voted, but then flagged!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14668197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14668197 Seems whatever use "role models" have, they certainly have ideological buy-in..
  - TuringTest 9y ago
    >> Role models are probably a bad idea >I tried suggesting exactly this - not only down-voted, but then flagged! I think that's because your post is of less quality than the one you're responding to, not because of the merits of the idea itself. pjc50 said "probably" instead of asserting an absolute, and provided a reason why that might be the case, instead of dismissing the concept with a snarky remark. In other words, pjc50 provided an argument to support the idea in a neutral tone. That can be respected even by people who don't agree with the argument.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      "quality" is subjective. Why should I "support the idea" of role models when I see no value in it? Isn't the burden of proof on the user? Where is the "argument" that role models are a valid thing worthy of authority?
      - TuringTest 9y ago
        I didn't say that you should support the idea of role models. I said that the argument provided in pjc50's post supported the idea that "role models are probably a bad idea". Your comment only included a sentiment, not a rational reason to support the idea you tried to express.
        Chris2048 9y ago
        That's all that is needed when the burden of proof is not upon you. I don't need to argue why there is no teapot in space, anyone with such a claim themselves bear that burden. MY 'idea' is the rejection if an unsupported claim, requiring no more rationalisation than that.
have_faith 9y ago
It sounds like you've spent more time online reading about this subject than you have offline learning about what it's really like, I don't mean that as an insult. In the same way that it is easy to conclude that there is a mass war between social justice warriors and the alt-right if you hang out in the right circles online, despite in real life it being a very minor fringe issue that the vast majority of people have no knowledge of. You shouldn't be hesitant to approach anyone as long as you feel you are being respectful.
jancsika 9y ago
> I don't come at this as the pushy sexual conqueror you seem to assume. My perspective is from social anxiety. I already am very hesitant to approach women, because everything seems forbidden and inappropriate. This social anxiety is not in the same category as the behavior of the perpetrator of sexual assault in this blog post. There are plenty of sites that will pair you up with someone for a date. You can meet someone from such a site and easily judge whether they are interested in pursuing a relationship further. Once they know you have social anxiety, they will probably even give you some leeway about being awkward and uncomfortable as you try to gauge where the relationship is going. That is certainly not a guarantee against you doing something out of line. And it is still certainly helpful to get advice from someone you trust who is obviously more comfortable and intuitive with the less "logical" aspects of human interaction. Completely unrelated to all of that-- this blog post was about a person who held a position of power over another in a professional business venture, tried to get the less powerful person in the venture drunk at a social gathering, then attempted to use that person's inebriation in order to increase the likelihood of sexual advances. Then, the victim of this unwanted and already inappropriate proposition explicitly said "no" and explicitly asked him to leave. Instead, he physically assaulted her. Please tell me you understand the difference between that and your own potential to have an awkward encounter with a woman due to social anxiety. edit: clarification
- ToadLegs 9y ago
  The only point I really wanted to make is that "If anyone reacts negatively to anything you do, it is always because you did something wrong" is an insane standard for human behavior. I think most everyone agrees with that in general. But when it's phrased "men please remember it isn't how you feel about whether or not an action was appropriate or inappropriate, it is how they feel about it", it's apparently a whole other story. I was hoping there could be a sane and logical discussion about that, but that seems impossible, at least here and now. > Please tell me you understand the difference between that and your own potential to have an awkward encounter with a woman due to social anxiety. I do understand that. I wasn't commenting on the main story at all, only the "If anyone reacts negatively..." quote. And I assume that when people say "and men please remember...", they really only mean pushy inconsiderate men, and forget that their word will be read by people like me who really need to hear advice about becoming more assertive. Final nitpick: I'm not so concerned with an awkward encounter. I have a lot of those. My fear is doing something I think is within modern rules of courtship, and be branded a sexual predator. My other fear is being so scared of doing something inappropriate that I never do anything at all and remain forever alone...

eropple 9y ago

It really, really isn't that complicated, I promise. Step one: communicate your interest politely and ask her on a date. Step two: if you are rebuffed, don't be a jerk. You will notice that nowhere in here is "she will act shocked and think you are a harasser." Because that's not how it actually works, despite the considerable efforts of some folks to convince you that it is. Perhaps you should meditate on why they'd spend so much effort on that.

thaumaturgy 9y ago

I wasn't describing you specifically. Maybe I was unclear, or maybe you're trying to steer a discussion about inequity towards a group of people into a discussion about your discomfort as a non-member of that group. Or maybe both. I also don't think this is the appropriate time and place to write a manual on dating. Here's one hint though: when you meet a nice woman, your first thought shouldn't be, "how do I proposition her?"

pjc50 9y ago

Role models are probably a bad idea; often we find out later that they've been going about it all wrong as well. > nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't find my sexual or romantic propositions inappropriate You can never be sure of anything in human relations. But I think the shorthand approach is to see it from her point of view. Basically, does she have a safe exit? In the situation described there are two ways in which she does not. Firstly, there's a business context - she's worried that if she says "no" firmly enough, it will jeopardize her contract; secondly, there's a physical obstructing of her and an initial refusing to leave her flat (he is eventually persuaded to). Remember also the flip side of this: as a woman, there is nothing she can to do be sure that someone she does actually accept a proposition from isn't a rapist. And if she does, there are people who will blame her for it.

Chris2048 9y ago
> Role models are probably a bad idea I tried suggesting exactly this - not only down-voted, but then flagged!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14668197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14668197 Seems whatever use "role models" have, they certainly have ideological buy-in..
- TuringTest 9y ago
  >> Role models are probably a bad idea >I tried suggesting exactly this - not only down-voted, but then flagged! I think that's because your post is of less quality than the one you're responding to, not because of the merits of the idea itself. pjc50 said "probably" instead of asserting an absolute, and provided a reason why that might be the case, instead of dismissing the concept with a snarky remark. In other words, pjc50 provided an argument to support the idea in a neutral tone. That can be respected even by people who don't agree with the argument.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    "quality" is subjective. Why should I "support the idea" of role models when I see no value in it? Isn't the burden of proof on the user? Where is the "argument" that role models are a valid thing worthy of authority?
    - TuringTest 9y ago
      I didn't say that you should support the idea of role models. I said that the argument provided in pjc50's post supported the idea that "role models are probably a bad idea". Your comment only included a sentiment, not a rational reason to support the idea you tried to express.
      - Chris2048 9y ago
        That's all that is needed when the burden of proof is not upon you. I don't need to argue why there is no teapot in space, anyone with such a claim themselves bear that burden. MY 'idea' is the rejection if an unsupported claim, requiring no more rationalisation than that.

have_faith 9y ago

It sounds like you've spent more time online reading about this subject than you have offline learning about what it's really like, I don't mean that as an insult. In the same way that it is easy to conclude that there is a mass war between social justice warriors and the alt-right if you hang out in the right circles online, despite in real life it being a very minor fringe issue that the vast majority of people have no knowledge of. You shouldn't be hesitant to approach anyone as long as you feel you are being respectful.

jancsika 9y ago

> I don't come at this as the pushy sexual conqueror you seem to assume. My perspective is from social anxiety. I already am very hesitant to approach women, because everything seems forbidden and inappropriate. This social anxiety is not in the same category as the behavior of the perpetrator of sexual assault in this blog post. There are plenty of sites that will pair you up with someone for a date. You can meet someone from such a site and easily judge whether they are interested in pursuing a relationship further. Once they know you have social anxiety, they will probably even give you some leeway about being awkward and uncomfortable as you try to gauge where the relationship is going. That is certainly not a guarantee against you doing something out of line. And it is still certainly helpful to get advice from someone you trust who is obviously more comfortable and intuitive with the less "logical" aspects of human interaction. Completely unrelated to all of that-- this blog post was about a person who held a position of power over another in a professional business venture, tried to get the less powerful person in the venture drunk at a social gathering, then attempted to use that person's inebriation in order to increase the likelihood of sexual advances. Then, the victim of this unwanted and already inappropriate proposition explicitly said "no" and explicitly asked him to leave. Instead, he physically assaulted her. Please tell me you understand the difference between that and your own potential to have an awkward encounter with a woman due to social anxiety. edit: clarification

ToadLegs 9y ago
The only point I really wanted to make is that "If anyone reacts negatively to anything you do, it is always because you did something wrong" is an insane standard for human behavior. I think most everyone agrees with that in general. But when it's phrased "men please remember it isn't how you feel about whether or not an action was appropriate or inappropriate, it is how they feel about it", it's apparently a whole other story. I was hoping there could be a sane and logical discussion about that, but that seems impossible, at least here and now. > Please tell me you understand the difference between that and your own potential to have an awkward encounter with a woman due to social anxiety. I do understand that. I wasn't commenting on the main story at all, only the "If anyone reacts negatively..." quote. And I assume that when people say "and men please remember...", they really only mean pushy inconsiderate men, and forget that their word will be read by people like me who really need to hear advice about becoming more assertive. Final nitpick: I'm not so concerned with an awkward encounter. I have a lot of those. My fear is doing something I think is within modern rules of courtship, and be branded a sexual predator. My other fear is being so scared of doing something inappropriate that I never do anything at all and remain forever alone...