5 ms·

No. If you think that is the only way - to interact without a shred of empathy or self-awareness of your own actions - then you may be part of the problem.

ToadLegs 9y ago
So what's another way to do it? I don't know of any way to reliably predict other people's reactions to what I do.
- thaumaturgy 9y ago
  Try to recall the character of someone who doesn't get accused of assaulting or abusing other people, or making them feel uncomfortable -- someone who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics -- and then behave like that. It's not that hard, really. Just be a grown-up. Put away the childish fantasies of finding self-worth by bedding lots of women and flaunting wealth and power, and treat everyone you interact with as though they're actual people.
  - ToadLegs 9y ago
    It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone, just for asking a few logical questions on the web. I don't come at this as the pushy sexual conqueror you seem to assume. My perspective is from social anxiety. I already am very hesitant to approach women, because everything seems forbidden and inappropriate. What I hear OP saying is that there is nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't find my sexual or romantic propositions inappropriate, which means I'm a sexual harasser and possibly a criminal. The standard of just becoming a person "who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics" is extremely ambitious. I don't think I can reach that in my life time. If you have, congratulations! And even if I can identify a role model like that, how do I find out how he propositions women?
    - eropple 9y ago
      It really, really isn't that complicated, I promise. Step one: communicate your interest politely and ask her on a date. Step two: if you are rebuffed, don't be a jerk. You will notice that nowhere in here is "she will act shocked and think you are a harasser." Because that's not how it actually works, despite the considerable efforts of some folks to convince you that it is. Perhaps you should meditate on why they'd spend so much effort on that.
    - thaumaturgy 9y ago
      I wasn't describing you specifically. Maybe I was unclear, or maybe you're trying to steer a discussion about inequity towards a group of people into a discussion about your discomfort as a non-member of that group. Or maybe both. I also don't think this is the appropriate time and place to write a manual on dating. Here's one hint though: when you meet a nice woman, your first thought shouldn't be, "how do I proposition her?"
    - pjc50 9y ago
      Role models are probably a bad idea; often we find out later that they've been going about it all wrong as well. > nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't find my sexual or romantic propositions inappropriate You can never be sure of anything in human relations. But I think the shorthand approach is to see it from her point of view. Basically, does she have a safe exit? In the situation described there are two ways in which she does not. Firstly, there's a business context - she's worried that if she says "no" firmly enough, it will jeopardize her contract; secondly, there's a physical obstructing of her and an initial refusing to leave her flat (he is eventually persuaded to). Remember also the flip side of this: as a woman, there is nothing she can to do be sure that someone she does actually accept a proposition from isn't a rapist. And if she does, there are people who will blame her for it.
      - Chris2048 9y ago
        > Role models are probably a bad idea I tried suggesting exactly this - not only down-voted, but then flagged!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14668197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14668197 Seems whatever use "role models" have, they certainly have ideological buy-in..

ToadLegs 9y ago

So what's another way to do it? I don't know of any way to reliably predict other people's reactions to what I do.

thaumaturgy 9y ago
Try to recall the character of someone who doesn't get accused of assaulting or abusing other people, or making them feel uncomfortable -- someone who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics -- and then behave like that. It's not that hard, really. Just be a grown-up. Put away the childish fantasies of finding self-worth by bedding lots of women and flaunting wealth and power, and treat everyone you interact with as though they're actual people.
- ToadLegs 9y ago
  It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone, just for asking a few logical questions on the web. I don't come at this as the pushy sexual conqueror you seem to assume. My perspective is from social anxiety. I already am very hesitant to approach women, because everything seems forbidden and inappropriate. What I hear OP saying is that there is nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't find my sexual or romantic propositions inappropriate, which means I'm a sexual harasser and possibly a criminal. The standard of just becoming a person "who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics" is extremely ambitious. I don't think I can reach that in my life time. If you have, congratulations! And even if I can identify a role model like that, how do I find out how he propositions women?
  - eropple 9y ago
    It really, really isn't that complicated, I promise. Step one: communicate your interest politely and ask her on a date. Step two: if you are rebuffed, don't be a jerk. You will notice that nowhere in here is "she will act shocked and think you are a harasser." Because that's not how it actually works, despite the considerable efforts of some folks to convince you that it is. Perhaps you should meditate on why they'd spend so much effort on that.
  - thaumaturgy 9y ago
    I wasn't describing you specifically. Maybe I was unclear, or maybe you're trying to steer a discussion about inequity towards a group of people into a discussion about your discomfort as a non-member of that group. Or maybe both. I also don't think this is the appropriate time and place to write a manual on dating. Here's one hint though: when you meet a nice woman, your first thought shouldn't be, "how do I proposition her?"
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Role models are probably a bad idea; often we find out later that they've been going about it all wrong as well. > nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't find my sexual or romantic propositions inappropriate You can never be sure of anything in human relations. But I think the shorthand approach is to see it from her point of view. Basically, does she have a safe exit? In the situation described there are two ways in which she does not. Firstly, there's a business context - she's worried that if she says "no" firmly enough, it will jeopardize her contract; secondly, there's a physical obstructing of her and an initial refusing to leave her flat (he is eventually persuaded to). Remember also the flip side of this: as a woman, there is nothing she can to do be sure that someone she does actually accept a proposition from isn't a rapist. And if she does, there are people who will blame her for it.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      > Role models are probably a bad idea I tried suggesting exactly this - not only down-voted, but then flagged!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14668197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14668197 Seems whatever use "role models" have, they certainly have ideological buy-in..