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It is unfortunate that these kind of things happen. They shed a bad light on our industry as a whole due to (hopefully a few) rotten apples. Thanks for writing

It is unfortunate that these kind of things happen. They shed a bad light on our industry as a whole due to (hopefully a few) rotten apples. Thanks for writing this, takes courage!

cbhl 9y ago
Let's stop perpetuating this myth that this is a "few rotten apples". This is a systemic problem in our industry, and we need to all realize this, so that we can start teaching each other what behavior is and is not appropriate in a very clear, concise, and precise manner.
- vertex-four 9y ago
  Specifically - the issue wouldn't exist if the parts of society these people exist in didn't implicitly enable this sort of behaviour.
- hectorlorenzo 9y ago
  My thoughts exactly. There's a gold rush in Silicon Valley (or the tech industry in general) and usually, these rushes attract jerks. You can't create a system of fierce individualism and predation and then act surprised if this behaviour extends to every facet of life. I read somewhere, a while ago, that assholes moved in herds to Wall Street in the 80s-90s, and now they've decided to move to California.
- sethjgore 9y ago
  I agree that we can teach each other what kind of culture we want to instill, and one that allows people to work in an environment that boosts their potential. However, from my observations, to flat out list a finite list of behaviorism, will manifest yet another set of behaviorism, which will manifest another list. I do not view this as a simple systematic problem, but rather a deep-wedged symptom of a sick society. We all are complicit. A society that is focused on results and ego and success will always encourage such behavior (of debasing others, exploiting others regardless of their being — even white men are exploited and debased by other "higher-paying" white men). No set of rules will change this until we change our society's culture. The culture cannot change through scolding, but rather a deep, opening conversation that will be conversed again and again until people find no use for the word harassment or sexual harassment or the desire to hurt or debase others in name of success.
  - olleromam91 9y ago
    Oh what a dream. If only.
- hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
  I think it's important to clarify what "our industry" means, though. I think it's a mistake to lump it all into "tech", because that misses some important root causes. I think there are a bunch of different things going on: 1. With respect to VCs preying on female entrepreneurs, this doesn't shock me in the slightest. Wherever you have this huge power imbalance, coupled with large numbers of people who are extremely reluctant to jeopardize their "big break", you will see this kind of abuse. It was/is common in Hollywood, and I think the Catholic Church sex scandals have a ton in common. If you have a situation with that type of power imbalance, unless you have a very detailed and specific process to deal with predators, that kind of abuse will happen. 2. I think what Susan Fowler described re: Uber has a ton to do with the extremely aggressive culture Uber set up. In fact, a lot of the "villains" in Susan's story were, surprisingly, women. I think the tough question is how to you "rein in" that type of aggressive culture when it was so successful for Uber originally. 3. Finally, with regards to how women are treated in general in tech, I think a lot of the unconscious biases people hold, how people react differently to men's ideas vs. women's, need to be discussed more openly and with a goal of making everyone more aware of their own prejudices without fear.
jacquesm 9y ago
> a few) rotten apples. Wow, that's really incredible optimism. I'd be more than happy if there was a 50/50 split between the kinds of apples but I fear that it is more along the lines of 20/80 or worse based on what I see and hear around me when no women are within earshot.
- DLadowDiCanFuge 9y ago
  If you're aware of harassment and assault of women, please contact the appropriate authorities. It's not normal and you shouldn't accept it as such.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    > If you're aware of harassment and assault of women, please contact the appropriate authorities. Are you kidding? I wouldn't have enough time in a day. Just some stats, 1 out of every 6 women has been the victim of attempted rape or rape. I'm aware of several such cases in the last 2 years alone, none of these resulted in an arrest or a court case and I have absolutely no reason not to believe the women. Besides that I do not have the right to go to the authorities on behalf of someone who does not want to go to the authorities herself because more often than not they are part of the problem and tend to make the whole affair into an exercise in victim blaming. This is an extremely complex issue and even if we can all agree that it is not normal there is no set recipe for how to deal with such situations.
    - gizmo686 9y ago
      Apparently we cannot agree that it is not normal, because you claimed that, optimistically, half of men are like that, with a more "realistic" estimate of 80%. The point is that, if the numbers are that bad in your experience, then you do have a very not normal experience.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        > if the numbers are that bad in your experience, then you do have a very not normal experience. That would be good news. But I fear that it isn't. Here's an experiment for you: ask the women you are close to in your life if they've been raped or assaulted. The answers may surprise you. If you feel brave ask someone who spent time in an orphanage or jail or some other place where they have little access to representation and are at the mercy of people that have power over them.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rectang 9y ago
It is not just a handful of rotten apples. The enablers are right there in the Twitter quotes. It isn't enough for the assholes to stop assholin'. We all have the opportunity to contribute positively by moving the norms, and we will all be better for it.
- brighteyes 9y ago
  The people that have the ability to fix it are the incredibly brave women coming forward. That's what's changing things. Otherwise, most of us have already been doing all we can. We don't do bad things, and we don't enable people doing bad things. It's ok to admit that we didn't cause this nor have the ability to fix it.
  - rectang 9y ago
    We're all in this together, and even when it falls to others to lead, we can all contribute in a supporting role. For example, there's lots of victim-blaming in these threads. We have an opportunity to speak up and counter it. In so doing, we support the brave women on the front lines.

It is unfortunate that these kind of things happen. They shed a bad light on our industry as a whole due to (hopefully a few) rotten apples. Thanks for writing this, takes courage!

cbhl 9y ago

Let's stop perpetuating this myth that this is a "few rotten apples". This is a systemic problem in our industry, and we need to all realize this, so that we can start teaching each other what behavior is and is not appropriate in a very clear, concise, and precise manner.

vertex-four 9y ago
Specifically - the issue wouldn't exist if the parts of society these people exist in didn't implicitly enable this sort of behaviour.
hectorlorenzo 9y ago
My thoughts exactly. There's a gold rush in Silicon Valley (or the tech industry in general) and usually, these rushes attract jerks. You can't create a system of fierce individualism and predation and then act surprised if this behaviour extends to every facet of life. I read somewhere, a while ago, that assholes moved in herds to Wall Street in the 80s-90s, and now they've decided to move to California.
sethjgore 9y ago
I agree that we can teach each other what kind of culture we want to instill, and one that allows people to work in an environment that boosts their potential. However, from my observations, to flat out list a finite list of behaviorism, will manifest yet another set of behaviorism, which will manifest another list. I do not view this as a simple systematic problem, but rather a deep-wedged symptom of a sick society. We all are complicit. A society that is focused on results and ego and success will always encourage such behavior (of debasing others, exploiting others regardless of their being — even white men are exploited and debased by other "higher-paying" white men). No set of rules will change this until we change our society's culture. The culture cannot change through scolding, but rather a deep, opening conversation that will be conversed again and again until people find no use for the word harassment or sexual harassment or the desire to hurt or debase others in name of success.
- olleromam91 9y ago
  Oh what a dream. If only.
hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
I think it's important to clarify what "our industry" means, though. I think it's a mistake to lump it all into "tech", because that misses some important root causes. I think there are a bunch of different things going on: 1. With respect to VCs preying on female entrepreneurs, this doesn't shock me in the slightest. Wherever you have this huge power imbalance, coupled with large numbers of people who are extremely reluctant to jeopardize their "big break", you will see this kind of abuse. It was/is common in Hollywood, and I think the Catholic Church sex scandals have a ton in common. If you have a situation with that type of power imbalance, unless you have a very detailed and specific process to deal with predators, that kind of abuse will happen. 2. I think what Susan Fowler described re: Uber has a ton to do with the extremely aggressive culture Uber set up. In fact, a lot of the "villains" in Susan's story were, surprisingly, women. I think the tough question is how to you "rein in" that type of aggressive culture when it was so successful for Uber originally. 3. Finally, with regards to how women are treated in general in tech, I think a lot of the unconscious biases people hold, how people react differently to men's ideas vs. women's, need to be discussed more openly and with a goal of making everyone more aware of their own prejudices without fear.

jacquesm 9y ago

> a few) rotten apples. Wow, that's really incredible optimism. I'd be more than happy if there was a 50/50 split between the kinds of apples but I fear that it is more along the lines of 20/80 or worse based on what I see and hear around me when no women are within earshot.

DLadowDiCanFuge 9y ago
If you're aware of harassment and assault of women, please contact the appropriate authorities. It's not normal and you shouldn't accept it as such.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > If you're aware of harassment and assault of women, please contact the appropriate authorities. Are you kidding? I wouldn't have enough time in a day. Just some stats, 1 out of every 6 women has been the victim of attempted rape or rape. I'm aware of several such cases in the last 2 years alone, none of these resulted in an arrest or a court case and I have absolutely no reason not to believe the women. Besides that I do not have the right to go to the authorities on behalf of someone who does not want to go to the authorities herself because more often than not they are part of the problem and tend to make the whole affair into an exercise in victim blaming. This is an extremely complex issue and even if we can all agree that it is not normal there is no set recipe for how to deal with such situations.
  - gizmo686 9y ago
    Apparently we cannot agree that it is not normal, because you claimed that, optimistically, half of men are like that, with a more "realistic" estimate of 80%. The point is that, if the numbers are that bad in your experience, then you do have a very not normal experience.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      > if the numbers are that bad in your experience, then you do have a very not normal experience. That would be good news. But I fear that it isn't. Here's an experiment for you: ask the women you are close to in your life if they've been raped or assaulted. The answers may surprise you. If you feel brave ask someone who spent time in an orphanage or jail or some other place where they have little access to representation and are at the mercy of people that have power over them.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

rectang 9y ago

It is not just a handful of rotten apples. The enablers are right there in the Twitter quotes. It isn't enough for the assholes to stop assholin'. We all have the opportunity to contribute positively by moving the norms, and we will all be better for it.

brighteyes 9y ago
The people that have the ability to fix it are the incredibly brave women coming forward. That's what's changing things. Otherwise, most of us have already been doing all we can. We don't do bad things, and we don't enable people doing bad things. It's ok to admit that we didn't cause this nor have the ability to fix it.
- rectang 9y ago
  We're all in this together, and even when it falls to others to lead, we can all contribute in a supporting role. For example, there's lots of victim-blaming in these threads. We have an opportunity to speak up and counter it. In so doing, we support the brave women on the front lines.