4 ms·

Of course nobody is going to fault you for succumbing to such practicalities, and it's perfectly fine to use substitutions when necessary. But there's somethin

Of course nobody is going to fault you for succumbing to such practicalities, and it's perfectly fine to use substitutions when necessary. But there's something to be said for preserving a few aspects of the diversity of cultures, as each one acts as its own preserve of centuries of wisdom. Hey, it's the German language that gave you Uber (the name). Which should actually be Über, but I digress. (and it'll be Over soon enough, anyway). We've come a long way with making unicode universally available, and there's really no reason to give up now when it's almost done. It's not a big issue for German, but cultures with non-latin script would rightfully be offended if forced to abandon it for ASCII, in the same way that the world would be poorer if all restaurants were replaced by McDonald's.

jacquesm 9y ago
Agreed on that, but culture to me goes a lot further than exchanging messages on the net. I'm thinking of France here, which has something called the 'Academie Francaise' (apologies for butchering the c-cedille in this context, the accent aigu 'e' in cedille and acedemie). The only effect this seems to have had is some token re-inforcement of French as a 'world language', but in practice it became a 'come up with French words for words where we already have a perfectly good one that everybody the world over understands but which isn't French'. If that's culture then I'd much more concentrate on the content than on the form and remove these artificial barriers. Which of course will lead to more and bloodier wars ;) Unicode is great, it made all languages equal. But I don't see the point of artificially making the problem worse by introducing new glyphs, that's the wrong message to send. We should aim for simplification within limits (not to go down to carricature) and if German got by so far without the 'capital sharp S' I see absolutely no reason to introduce it in the modern age. It's a step back, a small one, but still.
- fkistner 9y ago
  I have never understood the idea of protecting a language against foreign words. I think languages naturally strive to be as expressive as possible and will adopt words accordingly. However, I think it is important to note that the ẞ is not a letter they just made up. Heck, even the picture in the article shows an old book cover, which uses this never standardized letter. To me this is just correcting a previous oversight and formally allowing (not forcing) people to use the 'capital sharp s', for example in print, where they want to typeset a title in capitals.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    I can see a lot of trouble coming from this. Sort order for one. If a language this old didn't need a glyph up to 2017 it can be done without, especially if the use case is limited to all caps words. But I guess in that case you could convert its occurrence to SS first and then do the sort.
    - germanier 9y ago
      Actually I was a bit surprised when I learned that Unicode only added a codepoint for it in 2008 (and even rejected an earlier proposal). While the spelling rules have said for some time to replace it with "SS" the glyph was used quite often, including official documents such as passports. For sorting there is standard (DIN 5007). Replacing ß with ss is correct (even in the lower case variant). The other letters are more fun: ä is replaced with a for sorting, except if you sort a list of names. In that case you need to replace it by ae. Probably not something international software is aware of. The Austrian sorting of names is different and other languages that have the same glyph (e.g. Swedish) also have other rules (e.g. by placing ä at the very end of the alphabet).
      - matt4077 9y ago
        Funny you mention Swedish. Let's all bond over the shared experience of "why tf is this using latin1_swedish_ci collation?"
      - Freak_NL 9y ago
        > Probably not something international software is aware of. Collation rules that vary by locale exist for this reason, and all major programming languages and OS'es support this. Of course whether the software you use does this or not depends on the developers writing the software.
        germanier 9y ago
        Thanks for the term, I wasn't aware of it. This looks to be a standard problem in DBMSs at least. While not all of the rules I mentioned seem to be shipped by default, it looks fairly straightforward to add them. I just remember our development team moaning quite a bit after I added the requirement to sort names differently.
- kuschku 9y ago
  > I'm thinking of France here, which has something called the 'Academie Francaise' (apologies for butchering the c-cedille in this context, the accent aigu 'e' in cedille and acedemie). Actually, German has the Council of the German Language, which is what did this standardization effort of the new ẞ
- Kliment 9y ago
  I find introducing "new" unicode glyphs for characters that have historically been in wide use is extremely useful, as people working with historical texts no longer need to use workarounds to express them. See [1] for an example of the kind of characters you find in historical texts. Having an official way of representing anything that's actually (or has been) in use makes sense. Whether that's the same as recommending it for widespread adoption is a different question. Several German-speaking countries have dropped the ß from their orthography, but still agree on what the ß character should look like and how to represent it in text. Now, emoji, OTOH, just feels to me like unnecessarily polluting the character space. I'd much rather have a capital ß in the codespace than some smiling poo family. [1] http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2015/15327r-n4704-medieval-punct.pdf http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2015/15327r-n4704-medieval-punct....

jacquesm 9y ago

Agreed on that, but culture to me goes a lot further than exchanging messages on the net. I'm thinking of France here, which has something called the 'Academie Francaise' (apologies for butchering the c-cedille in this context, the accent aigu 'e' in cedille and acedemie). The only effect this seems to have had is some token re-inforcement of French as a 'world language', but in practice it became a 'come up with French words for words where we already have a perfectly good one that everybody the world over understands but which isn't French'. If that's culture then I'd much more concentrate on the content than on the form and remove these artificial barriers. Which of course will lead to more and bloodier wars ;) Unicode is great, it made all languages equal. But I don't see the point of artificially making the problem worse by introducing new glyphs, that's the wrong message to send. We should aim for simplification within limits (not to go down to carricature) and if German got by so far without the 'capital sharp S' I see absolutely no reason to introduce it in the modern age. It's a step back, a small one, but still.

fkistner 9y ago
I have never understood the idea of protecting a language against foreign words. I think languages naturally strive to be as expressive as possible and will adopt words accordingly. However, I think it is important to note that the ẞ is not a letter they just made up. Heck, even the picture in the article shows an old book cover, which uses this never standardized letter. To me this is just correcting a previous oversight and formally allowing (not forcing) people to use the 'capital sharp s', for example in print, where they want to typeset a title in capitals.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  I can see a lot of trouble coming from this. Sort order for one. If a language this old didn't need a glyph up to 2017 it can be done without, especially if the use case is limited to all caps words. But I guess in that case you could convert its occurrence to SS first and then do the sort.
  - germanier 9y ago
    Actually I was a bit surprised when I learned that Unicode only added a codepoint for it in 2008 (and even rejected an earlier proposal). While the spelling rules have said for some time to replace it with "SS" the glyph was used quite often, including official documents such as passports. For sorting there is standard (DIN 5007). Replacing ß with ss is correct (even in the lower case variant). The other letters are more fun: ä is replaced with a for sorting, except if you sort a list of names. In that case you need to replace it by ae. Probably not something international software is aware of. The Austrian sorting of names is different and other languages that have the same glyph (e.g. Swedish) also have other rules (e.g. by placing ä at the very end of the alphabet).
    - matt4077 9y ago
      Funny you mention Swedish. Let's all bond over the shared experience of "why tf is this using latin1_swedish_ci collation?"
    - Freak_NL 9y ago
      > Probably not something international software is aware of. Collation rules that vary by locale exist for this reason, and all major programming languages and OS'es support this. Of course whether the software you use does this or not depends on the developers writing the software.
      - germanier 9y ago
        Thanks for the term, I wasn't aware of it. This looks to be a standard problem in DBMSs at least. While not all of the rules I mentioned seem to be shipped by default, it looks fairly straightforward to add them. I just remember our development team moaning quite a bit after I added the requirement to sort names differently.
kuschku 9y ago
> I'm thinking of France here, which has something called the 'Academie Francaise' (apologies for butchering the c-cedille in this context, the accent aigu 'e' in cedille and acedemie). Actually, German has the Council of the German Language, which is what did this standardization effort of the new ẞ
Kliment 9y ago
I find introducing "new" unicode glyphs for characters that have historically been in wide use is extremely useful, as people working with historical texts no longer need to use workarounds to express them. See [1] for an example of the kind of characters you find in historical texts. Having an official way of representing anything that's actually (or has been) in use makes sense. Whether that's the same as recommending it for widespread adoption is a different question. Several German-speaking countries have dropped the ß from their orthography, but still agree on what the ß character should look like and how to represent it in text. Now, emoji, OTOH, just feels to me like unnecessarily polluting the character space. I'd much rather have a capital ß in the codespace than some smiling poo family. [1] http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2015/15327r-n4704-medieval-punct.pdf http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2015/15327r-n4704-medieval-punct....