>More broadly, this is the whole opinionated vs. non-opinionated debate, and I've come to the belief that the vast majority of programmers need the guidance tha

>More broadly, this is the whole opinionated vs. non-opinionated debate, and I've come to the belief that the vast majority of programmers need the guidance that an opinionated framework gives. The vast majority of programmers need opinionated because they want to string together 15 or 20 different plugins to do ordinary things like CMS, rate limiting, caching, facebook/github authentication, csv export from the admin, drag and drop within admin, and hundreds of other things where you don't want to reinvent the wheel. With Django there is a larger ecosystem and those modules tend to play better together, and they are pretty much equally loosely coupled. With Flask you get a few modules that use SQLAlchemy, some that use peewee and others like Quokka (flask CMS) that just decided to use mongo for the hell of it. That's the dark side of not being opinionated. The "batteries included" argument is a red herring, IMO. It doesn't really matter that Django includes admin in the 'django' package and flask separates it out into 'flask-admin'. You don't have to use either if you don't want and being in a different package is orthogonal to coupling. The magic argument is also sometimes a bit of a red herring too. SQLAlchemy, django ORM, django admin and flask admin all use tons of magic but everybody loves them. Magic is horrible in the wrong place but incredibly powerful in the right place. Rails gave it a bad rep because it used magic too much in the wrong places.