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> It's different from the sort of value that a startup creates: at least a startup is trying to affect the world in a tangible way that can usually be explained

> It's different from the sort of value that a startup creates: at least a startup is trying to affect the world in a tangible way that can usually be explained in a couple of sentences. I agree that it is different. Arguably, though, if Bitcoin gains enough traction, it would affect the world too.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
I put in an edit to clarify some thoughts on investing in coins. Basically, if you put in money and then don't touch the coins for years, that's investing. It's just so hard to have that mindset in this particular medium.
lumberjack 9y ago
>Arguably, though, if Bitcoin gains enough traction, it would affect the world too. But even then, the ways in which it would affect the world is unpredictable and any predictions are pure speculation. In 2011 people where thinking that when 1BTC reaches $1000 in value, there would be mass adoption and it will be used as a currency for mundane everyday purchases. Well that didn't happen and it doesn't seem like Bitcoin will ever be use in that way.
- colecut 9y ago
  I bought OJ, milk, eggs, veggies yesterday with BTC via my Shift Card. This hasn't caught on mainstream yet but the infrastructure is there, and it's growing. https://www.shiftpayments.com/card https://www.shiftpayments.com/card
  - richardknop 9y ago
    The fees are quite high for that card. And you are not paying with BTC. If it's a debit card then you have to have fiat in a bank account. I guess they exchange BTC to USD when you top up your shift card.
    - colecut 9y ago
      Can you please elaborate on what fees are high? I paid $10 for the card. $0.00 annual fee $0.00 Domestic transactions BTC is converted to fiat at the time of purchase, also with no fee, no need to "top up" the shift card..
      - ac29 9y ago
        >BTC is converted to fiat at the time of purchase, also with no fee Shift appears to use Coinbase for its BTC->Fiat needs. Coinbase charges exchange fees [0]. Or am I not understanding how the card works? [0]https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2109597 https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/210959...
      - richardknop 9y ago
        International fees are high. But also conversion from BTC to USD is not for free. Whoever is doing the conversion is charging a fee. Probably as part of exchange rate where they add a markup. So you don't see an explicit fee in your statement but they use little worse exchange rate and that is their cut. Also whoever is their payment processor (whoever they partnered with to print those debit cards as they don't have license to do it themselves) is charging some fees.
        colecut 9y ago
        I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence of these fees. Coinbase charges a 1.49% fee when transferring to/from my Bank changing between USD and BTC. GDAX, which is owned by Coinbase, does not appear to charge me this fee. I don't see evidence of the Shift card charging it either.
  - acdha 9y ago
    Did the merchant receive payment in BTC? If not, how does that count as infrastructure? If it looks like a debit card using USD over Visa's network for the real transaction, the Bitcoin part could be replaced at any time and none of the blockchain selling points would appear to be relevant.
- calafrax 9y ago
  Mass adoption can never happen because bitcoin was never designed to be a payment system for mass adoption. Look at the history: circa 2000 E-Gold was the go-to currency for illegal activity online. In 2008 E-Gold got shut down. A few months later the bitcoin proposal surfaces and coincidentally solves the "problems" with E-Gold by making it impossible to shut down, impossible to indict the owners, and easier to hide money flows if you are sophisticated enough to write programs to move your money through webs of anonymous proxy accounts. Bitcoin was designed from the beginning to be ideal for illegal activity and the features that make it good for illegal activity also make it expensive, inefficient, and poorly suited to legitimate commerce (non-repudiation is basically a deal breaker). Throw in the risk created by price fluctuations and the whole thing is just totally impractical for real world use at scale. But hey, I was saying the same thing back then too, and I could be a millionaire now, so you probably shouldn't take my advice.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

I put in an edit to clarify some thoughts on investing in coins. Basically, if you put in money and then don't touch the coins for years, that's investing. It's just so hard to have that mindset in this particular medium.

lumberjack 9y ago

>Arguably, though, if Bitcoin gains enough traction, it would affect the world too. But even then, the ways in which it would affect the world is unpredictable and any predictions are pure speculation. In 2011 people where thinking that when 1BTC reaches $1000 in value, there would be mass adoption and it will be used as a currency for mundane everyday purchases. Well that didn't happen and it doesn't seem like Bitcoin will ever be use in that way.

colecut 9y ago
I bought OJ, milk, eggs, veggies yesterday with BTC via my Shift Card. This hasn't caught on mainstream yet but the infrastructure is there, and it's growing. https://www.shiftpayments.com/card https://www.shiftpayments.com/card
- richardknop 9y ago
  The fees are quite high for that card. And you are not paying with BTC. If it's a debit card then you have to have fiat in a bank account. I guess they exchange BTC to USD when you top up your shift card.
  - colecut 9y ago
    Can you please elaborate on what fees are high? I paid $10 for the card. $0.00 annual fee $0.00 Domestic transactions BTC is converted to fiat at the time of purchase, also with no fee, no need to "top up" the shift card..
    - ac29 9y ago
      >BTC is converted to fiat at the time of purchase, also with no fee Shift appears to use Coinbase for its BTC->Fiat needs. Coinbase charges exchange fees [0]. Or am I not understanding how the card works? [0]https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2109597 https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/210959...
    - richardknop 9y ago
      International fees are high. But also conversion from BTC to USD is not for free. Whoever is doing the conversion is charging a fee. Probably as part of exchange rate where they add a markup. So you don't see an explicit fee in your statement but they use little worse exchange rate and that is their cut. Also whoever is their payment processor (whoever they partnered with to print those debit cards as they don't have license to do it themselves) is charging some fees.
      - colecut 9y ago
        I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence of these fees. Coinbase charges a 1.49% fee when transferring to/from my Bank changing between USD and BTC. GDAX, which is owned by Coinbase, does not appear to charge me this fee. I don't see evidence of the Shift card charging it either.
- acdha 9y ago
  Did the merchant receive payment in BTC? If not, how does that count as infrastructure? If it looks like a debit card using USD over Visa's network for the real transaction, the Bitcoin part could be replaced at any time and none of the blockchain selling points would appear to be relevant.
calafrax 9y ago
Mass adoption can never happen because bitcoin was never designed to be a payment system for mass adoption. Look at the history: circa 2000 E-Gold was the go-to currency for illegal activity online. In 2008 E-Gold got shut down. A few months later the bitcoin proposal surfaces and coincidentally solves the "problems" with E-Gold by making it impossible to shut down, impossible to indict the owners, and easier to hide money flows if you are sophisticated enough to write programs to move your money through webs of anonymous proxy accounts. Bitcoin was designed from the beginning to be ideal for illegal activity and the features that make it good for illegal activity also make it expensive, inefficient, and poorly suited to legitimate commerce (non-repudiation is basically a deal breaker). Throw in the risk created by price fluctuations and the whole thing is just totally impractical for real world use at scale. But hey, I was saying the same thing back then too, and I could be a millionaire now, so you probably shouldn't take my advice.