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True, though it's probably best to go further: Any money into any cyptocoin is pure gambling. Don't put any money in you can't afford to lose. If anyone is say

True, though it's probably best to go further: Any money into any cyptocoin is pure gambling. Don't put any money in you can't afford to lose. If anyone is saying the word "investment" while talking about a cryptocoin, smile and nod while slowly receding in the other direction. As a gambling vehicle, cryptocoins are one of the finest ever created. But people should at least admit to themselves that it's not investing. That's a little bit of a No True Scotsman, but there's a grain of truth to it. Yes, abstractly cryptocoins are going to create a lot of value for the world. But that value is abstract, at least for now. It's different from the sort of value that a startup creates: at least a startup is trying to affect the world in a tangible way that can usually be explained in a couple of sentences. EDIT: I think it's possible to invest in cryptocoin, but you have to be willing to put money in and then not touch the coins for years. What bugs me about ICOs is that it's pandering solely to a get-rich-quick mindset. That's nearly the definition of any "initial X offering."

leovailati 9y ago
> It's different from the sort of value that a startup creates: at least a startup is trying to affect the world in a tangible way that can usually be explained in a couple of sentences. I agree that it is different. Arguably, though, if Bitcoin gains enough traction, it would affect the world too.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  I put in an edit to clarify some thoughts on investing in coins. Basically, if you put in money and then don't touch the coins for years, that's investing. It's just so hard to have that mindset in this particular medium.
- lumberjack 9y ago
  >Arguably, though, if Bitcoin gains enough traction, it would affect the world too. But even then, the ways in which it would affect the world is unpredictable and any predictions are pure speculation. In 2011 people where thinking that when 1BTC reaches $1000 in value, there would be mass adoption and it will be used as a currency for mundane everyday purchases. Well that didn't happen and it doesn't seem like Bitcoin will ever be use in that way.
  - colecut 9y ago
    I bought OJ, milk, eggs, veggies yesterday with BTC via my Shift Card. This hasn't caught on mainstream yet but the infrastructure is there, and it's growing. https://www.shiftpayments.com/card https://www.shiftpayments.com/card
    - richardknop 9y ago
      The fees are quite high for that card. And you are not paying with BTC. If it's a debit card then you have to have fiat in a bank account. I guess they exchange BTC to USD when you top up your shift card.
      - colecut 9y ago
        Can you please elaborate on what fees are high? I paid $10 for the card. $0.00 annual fee $0.00 Domestic transactions BTC is converted to fiat at the time of purchase, also with no fee, no need to "top up" the shift card..
        ac29 9y ago
        >BTC is converted to fiat at the time of purchase, also with no fee Shift appears to use Coinbase for its BTC->Fiat needs. Coinbase charges exchange fees [0]. Or am I not understanding how the card works? [0]https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2109597 https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/210959...
        richardknop 9y ago
        International fees are high. But also conversion from BTC to USD is not for free. Whoever is doing the conversion is charging a fee. Probably as part of exchange rate where they add a markup. So you don't see an explicit fee in your statement but they use little worse exchange rate and that is their cut. Also whoever is their payment processor (whoever they partnered with to print those debit cards as they don't have license to do it themselves) is charging some fees.
elif 9y ago
>If anyone is saying the word "investment" while talking about a cryptocoin, smile and nod while slowly receding in the other direction. >EDIT: I think it's possible to invest in cryptocoin smiles about 1000% gains and walks away
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Heh. Have I told you about my Sillycoin ICO? Wait, don't go... I realized that pg has some bitcoins, so it's a stretch to say he's just gambling and not investing. But Bitcoin and Ethereum seem to attract huge numbers of get-rich-quick people that try to convince others the flip is real investing.
- simias 9y ago
  It's like encouraging people to play the lottery because you won the big prize once. It's an very risky investment and I think it's incredibly irresponsible to encourage people to dump money in it if they don't understand fully what it's about. The "to the moon" memes aren't funny anymore when gullible people start buying bitcoins with money they can't afford to lose. Bitcoins will have to overcome massive challenges if it's to become something more than a vessel for speculation and black market purchases. It needs to scale to several orders of magnitude more transactions (none of the proposed scaling methods so far come even close). Then you need to convince the broad public to switch to an unregulated currency (not everybody is a crypto-anarchist/libertarian). Maybe it'll make it, maybe it won't. And if it does we'll be left to wonder if it's fair that a small share of early adopters end up owning a significant share of the world's money (the new 0.1%). At any rate I'd strongly encourage you to diversify your 1000% gains if you haven't done so already...
  - kanzure 9y ago
    > none of the proposed scaling methods so far come even close you sure? what happened to the estimates related to payment channel proposals: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/overview-of-bips-necessary-for-lightning/ http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/o...
zby 9y ago
Between gambling and investing there is speculating. I believe there are ways to have an edge in cryptocoin speculating - it is unfair to say that it is all gambling. I cannot say I am very good in this game, there are people at the chats who are way less nervous and emotional and who must have made fortunes, but I have quit my programming job and now live from it.

leovailati 9y ago

> It's different from the sort of value that a startup creates: at least a startup is trying to affect the world in a tangible way that can usually be explained in a couple of sentences. I agree that it is different. Arguably, though, if Bitcoin gains enough traction, it would affect the world too.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
I put in an edit to clarify some thoughts on investing in coins. Basically, if you put in money and then don't touch the coins for years, that's investing. It's just so hard to have that mindset in this particular medium.
lumberjack 9y ago
>Arguably, though, if Bitcoin gains enough traction, it would affect the world too. But even then, the ways in which it would affect the world is unpredictable and any predictions are pure speculation. In 2011 people where thinking that when 1BTC reaches $1000 in value, there would be mass adoption and it will be used as a currency for mundane everyday purchases. Well that didn't happen and it doesn't seem like Bitcoin will ever be use in that way.
- colecut 9y ago
  I bought OJ, milk, eggs, veggies yesterday with BTC via my Shift Card. This hasn't caught on mainstream yet but the infrastructure is there, and it's growing. https://www.shiftpayments.com/card https://www.shiftpayments.com/card
  - richardknop 9y ago
    The fees are quite high for that card. And you are not paying with BTC. If it's a debit card then you have to have fiat in a bank account. I guess they exchange BTC to USD when you top up your shift card.
    - colecut 9y ago
      Can you please elaborate on what fees are high? I paid $10 for the card. $0.00 annual fee $0.00 Domestic transactions BTC is converted to fiat at the time of purchase, also with no fee, no need to "top up" the shift card..
      - ac29 9y ago
        >BTC is converted to fiat at the time of purchase, also with no fee Shift appears to use Coinbase for its BTC->Fiat needs. Coinbase charges exchange fees [0]. Or am I not understanding how the card works? [0]https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2109597 https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/210959...
      - richardknop 9y ago
        International fees are high. But also conversion from BTC to USD is not for free. Whoever is doing the conversion is charging a fee. Probably as part of exchange rate where they add a markup. So you don't see an explicit fee in your statement but they use little worse exchange rate and that is their cut. Also whoever is their payment processor (whoever they partnered with to print those debit cards as they don't have license to do it themselves) is charging some fees.

elif 9y ago

>If anyone is saying the word "investment" while talking about a cryptocoin, smile and nod while slowly receding in the other direction. >EDIT: I think it's possible to invest in cryptocoin smiles about 1000% gains and walks away

sillysaurus3 9y ago
Heh. Have I told you about my Sillycoin ICO? Wait, don't go... I realized that pg has some bitcoins, so it's a stretch to say he's just gambling and not investing. But Bitcoin and Ethereum seem to attract huge numbers of get-rich-quick people that try to convince others the flip is real investing.
simias 9y ago
It's like encouraging people to play the lottery because you won the big prize once. It's an very risky investment and I think it's incredibly irresponsible to encourage people to dump money in it if they don't understand fully what it's about. The "to the moon" memes aren't funny anymore when gullible people start buying bitcoins with money they can't afford to lose. Bitcoins will have to overcome massive challenges if it's to become something more than a vessel for speculation and black market purchases. It needs to scale to several orders of magnitude more transactions (none of the proposed scaling methods so far come even close). Then you need to convince the broad public to switch to an unregulated currency (not everybody is a crypto-anarchist/libertarian). Maybe it'll make it, maybe it won't. And if it does we'll be left to wonder if it's fair that a small share of early adopters end up owning a significant share of the world's money (the new 0.1%). At any rate I'd strongly encourage you to diversify your 1000% gains if you haven't done so already...
- kanzure 9y ago
  > none of the proposed scaling methods so far come even close you sure? what happened to the estimates related to payment channel proposals: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/overview-of-bips-necessary-for-lightning/ http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/o...

zby 9y ago

Between gambling and investing there is speculating. I believe there are ways to have an edge in cryptocoin speculating - it is unfair to say that it is all gambling. I cannot say I am very good in this game, there are people at the chats who are way less nervous and emotional and who must have made fortunes, but I have quit my programming job and now live from it.