7 ms·

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you

by d--b 9y ago

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

user5994461 9y ago
As a French who migrated off, going to the UK was so easy. I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.
- palunon 9y ago
  Note that immigration inside the EU is way easier than with other countries. You don't need a visa, working permit, special bank account (for US citizens, since the bank must report income, etc, to the US gov), your driving license is valid, etc.
  - oblio 9y ago
    And immigration to the EU for someone not coming from developed countries is waaaaaaay harder than for someone coming from the US & co.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Not really. You change languages, currency, you need new bank accounts, new health insurance, completely different educational system. All administrations are different. The culture is also a shock. You will never find any of the grocery or shop you used to buy. A French going to the UK is not much different than a Mexican going to the USA. The only advantage is that you don't risk being deported by the police if they don't like you papers. You are effectively allowed to be there by the virtue of being European.
    - ido 9y ago
      That's a huge advantage tho, especially if you don't already have a job offer at hand. In fact if you're not in a well paid/in-demand profession like software dev it is almost impossible to immigrate legally from outside the EU.
    - someSven 9y ago
      What's it with the bank accounts? You can transfer money within the EU without any problems. I pay my rent in Spain from a German bank account. Though, getting wired internet is another thing, these companies seem to ignore European law.
  - tobltobs 9y ago
    Not true for France. It might be easier for an EU citizen, but it is still a big waste of time. Getting a bank account still takes at least 3 visits. To hold a working card in your hand will take more then a month. Your driving licence is valid only for a year. And the Social Security nightmare is pretty much the same for everybody. And for the etc. prepare for that every bit will be a hassle.
    - rjsw 9y ago
      I think that the parent comment meant that you can easily use a bank account from another EU country in France. Opening a French bank account isn't complicated either if it is with a multinational bank, I have never been inside a French branch of mine.
      - user5994461 9y ago
        And the parent is mistaking, he's probably American. You cannot use a bank accounts well across EU country. Banks are a very localized service, they provide specific account number formats and payment methods by country. It will be a huge hassle day to day when you want a SEPA transfer and the guy expects a RIB or a sort code. It's worse with UK and Switzerland because they have a different currency. You really need a local bank account or you get bankrupted by the fees and the exchange rate. Incidentally they are the only places where there are the big tech and finance companies to work for. Most banks are national. There are very few banks that have an international presence, with decent service at the offices. The last time I went to a French bank in a different region than where I opened the account, they told me they can't do anything and I have to go to my "home" agency.
        rjsw 9y ago
        I have UK and French accounts with the same bank. Both work fine for making payments in other EU countries. I can transfer money between them whenever I want (or spot a better exchange rate).
        9y ago
- faster 9y ago
  I did it in 2013, with a C&T visa and a very weak grasp of the language. It took about 40 hours (mostly standing in various lines) to get my residence card. Some bureaucrats fucked with me because they could, and some were helpful but still followed their own version of the rules. For example, one day photocopies of bills were acceptable for proof of address (but something else was not acceptable) and the very next day, only the original bill would be accepted. My daughter is fluent in French and she went with me to the prefecture once. She told me that the woman behind the glass was super rude, even though she put on a smile and pretended to be helpful. In fact, the next time I made it through the line there and explained what documents I had and why, the guy went to that woman's counter and chewed her out for being malicious (she had written a partial list of required docs instead of handing me the official complete-ish pre-printed list), and apologized to me for her behavior. Then he rejected my paperwork for a reason that was not documented anywhere. Catch-22s are everywhere; you can't open a bank account without proof of address, but you can't rent a place without a local bank account. It's the same for just about everything important. We had some French friends who cosigned for our apartment so we could get past that, and we were VERY fortunate to have friends who were willing to do that for us. A few people told me that everyone knows someone who can make fake paperwork; you just can't follow all the rules. C'est impossible! However, I would say that living in France was a fantastic experience, and I wish I had done it 10 years earlier.
  - graniter 9y ago
    For the proof of residence, an option nowadays is to book a place long term on airbnb, say 6 months or more, and then put the utilities in your name. Even just one utility may be enough, like water or electricity, maybe even internet too. Then you can use the utility bill as proof of address without needing to sign a formal rental agreement. Note that most governmental places will not accept an AirBnB receipt as proof of address, but a bank might. Keep bills of everything. Always have copies of everything on hand (passports, work contract, birth certificates, visas, bills) and keep electronic copies that you can print off any time.
    - gcb0 9y ago
      don't do airbnb. for longer than 30 days there are hundreds of real state places that find much better place for half the airbnb price. absolutely everyone will speak fluent English (differently from airbnb). only downside is a deposit like any other rent
- antod 9y ago
  Heh, I work with a couple of Frenchmen (in NZ) and they always get a good chuckle when they hear Kiwis complain about UK bureaucracy :)
graniter 9y ago
I agree that other countries are difficult, too. France moreso I think, but not alone in all of this. Which is why I'm arguing the difficulty in working in or starting a company in France is not money, it's navigating all the administration you need to do. And you won't know all there is to do until you do it. And since the laws change periodically, not even the prefecture will always know. I had immigration lawyers get the prefecture to correct the residency card they were issuing for me because they did it under a different program. How are you to know if the administration is doing it all correctly? And how do you know what all there is to do? And it is all in French. You better learn French or bring a translator. That's what I did. And we haven't even mentioned income tax. As a US citizen you still have tax liability for income you make in France, meaning you still pay the US a decent amount of taxes you make in France. The US is one of the only countries that does this. So you'll need to hire an accountant familiar with this to do your US taxes, and you still have to pay your French taxes. And forming a business? Better find someone who knows what to do, and be prepared for it took take a long time, like a year. Small businesses aren't too bad, but if you want employees...that's a totally different story. Solve the above problems I listed and then France will be attractive to foreigners. Maybe there's a business idea: help companies and people navigate French administration. It's worth a ton of headache.
- realusername 9y ago
  While France isn't the best country in the world for easily paying your taxes, it's clearly much better than the US if it's what you are afraid of.
  - graniter 9y ago
    Actually paying French income tax is pretty easy; it's paying US taxes if you are a US citizen working in France that's hard. I'm not sure Americans know that they are taxed on their income wherever they earn it. All other countries only tax your income that you earn in that country. French citizens don't pay income tax on their salary they earn in the US, but the reverse is not true. Not only do Americans have to pay French income tax, they have to pay US income tax, even if they earn all their salary in France and stayed in France the entire year. And it gets complicated how to calculate, which is why I pay HR Block $700 to do it for me. This isn't France's fault. It's the US's.
dottedmag 9y ago
Russia->Norway. One visit to police station on arrival, everything else is done for you (by the state, not by the company!)
- bernardlunn 9y ago
  Wow, really, like single window immigration? Cool
bernardlunn 9y ago
Echo that. Have moved more than once and all bureaucracies suck and cannot be dismantled overnight. A simple how to guide would make a big difference.
maccard 9y ago
I moved to the UK (from Ireland). It was relatively painless. No visas, no registration as a foreign worker, just show up and tell the JobCenter you need a National Insurance Number (which took almost a month from the first phone call to getting a cancallation, to getting the number in the post). Getting a bank account was tricky though, most banks wanted a proof of address on a utility bill, but I couldn't sign up to sky/etc without a bank account. In the end, HSBC gave me an account with my passport as proof of who I said I was. Other than that, it was as difficult as moving city. Obviously not everyone has it this easy.
- skrause 9y ago
  > I moved to the UK (from Ireland). It was relatively painless. That's because both are EU countries (for now at least). Moving to France will also be much easier if you're an EU citizen, you won't have to deal with residence permits and your driver's license will also be valid.
  - tobltobs 9y ago
    You don't have to deal with residence permits but you will have to get a residence card, because without you will have lots of problems. Your driving licence is valid for one year, after that you have to convert your licence. Depending on what classes you have this will require medical tests and additional examinations.
- user5994461 9y ago
  Your NIN is proof of address, if you can get it first. A company can give you a letter to confirm that you work for them, that's also usable as a proof of address.
  - maccard 9y ago
    It took me a month to get my NIN, which would have meant I wouldn't have been paid, and would have been unable to pay rent. (First job out of University). None of the banks I spoke to (TSB, Santander, nationwide, RBS) would accept a letter from my employer
megido 9y ago
I can speak about Netherlands. The process is super easy and super smooth. * I got my residence permit on 3rd day of arriving to country * I opened bank account on 4th day * I've opened my insurance by just going online and not talking to people at all Dutch system is performing very well on bringing tech talent. There's this "Expat Center" that handles whole stuff. In addition to that our company (Booking.com) makes your move even smoother by assisting your relocation and by providing you temporary stay until you find your dreamy apartment. Please be welcomed at Booking.com in Amsterdam headquarters! * software developer: http://grnh.se/0fotp8 http://grnh.se/0fotp8 * front-end developer: http://grnh.se/xl658q http://grnh.se/xl658q * product owner (e-commerce): http://grnh.se/6gfqds http://grnh.se/6gfqds * ux designer: http://grnh.se/1qhylg http://grnh.se/1qhylg
- nulldev 9y ago
  Do you guys still work with a predominantly Perl stack?
  - megido 9y ago
    Yeap. But lots of other stuff is also being used nowadays, including java, python, go, etc. depending on the product.
  - ishtu 9y ago
    Not sure about Booking, but at Catawiki (also NL-based) we are looking for Ruby developers willing to relocate. Contact me via email in my profile if you are interested!
- graniter 9y ago
  This is how it should be done. Sounds like both the government and your company are doing it right and it's paying off because your are doing well recruiting talent. This is what France should do. But I do feel like there is some odd satisfaction in France both among the French and expats of having paid their dues, made it through the process and are sort of proud of it. Almost like they don;t want to make it too easy.
neversorry 9y ago
I can speak for Ireland. I am from a south asian country and the who process in Ireland has been a breeze. Visa and permit? Easy. Just go to the office, present the documents and everything comes in post two weeks later. Register with social welfare? great. Just go there and they set you up. You get a card and setup the account online. Everything else take care of by the employer and revenue departments. Driving license? Take the written test and 300 euros for the lessons. If you pass, you can drive (with a driver with full license). Take the test 6 months later for full license. Yes, here and there you do meet someone who tries to give you a hard time. but all in all, a very positive experience.
tobltobs 9y ago
Migrating to Switzerland was a breeze. Everything was set in under a week. Founding a LTD was also easy. In France it took months to get everything solved for immigration (as a EU citizen). I am still struggling to solve those various puzzle pieces for founding a company. The kafkaesque RSI alone requires more time and effort then all the bureaucry in Switzerland together.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  Can you live outside France, and commute in to work? E.g Swiss bank account, company etc.
mtremsal 9y ago
Moving to the US was easier than navigating the French administration as a French citizen. I was able to open a bank account on day 2, without an ID. Obtaining the ID required a trip to the DMV, which while time-consuming, wasn't an especially complex endeavour. Only issue I ran into was the government shutdown, and that affected everyone.
- d--b 9y ago
  I don't know how you did it. Every bank I went to asked me for 2 official ID documents (which I didn't have). Getting a social security number was not particularly hard Having no credit history was a pain in the ass. DMV was annoying. That my wife could not work on my visa was a problem. The green card process was long and painful. Showing your genitals to a doctor to get a residency card was an unexpected and unpleasant part of the process.
  - tapatio 9y ago
    Did they cup them?
  - mtremsal 9y ago
    I believe opening a bank account has different requirements in different states. In NYC I only had to show my French passport, work visa, and full-time local work contract. The process seemed designed to allow even unlawful immigrants to get access to banking. In particular I believe the IVR had different decision trees in English and Spanish. Interesting. edit: I agree having no credit history was a major PITA.
  - gcb0 9y ago
    don't forget the mandatory tuberculosis culture test under your skin if you are from a 1st world country that uses vaccines.
- gcb0 9y ago
  I have never heard of anyone ever getting a driver's license in 2 days. unless your bank accepted the matrix printer temporary one that doesn't even have a b&w photo.

by d--b 9y ago

user5994461 9y ago

As a French who migrated off, going to the UK was so easy. I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.

palunon 9y ago
Note that immigration inside the EU is way easier than with other countries. You don't need a visa, working permit, special bank account (for US citizens, since the bank must report income, etc, to the US gov), your driving license is valid, etc.
- oblio 9y ago
  And immigration to the EU for someone not coming from developed countries is waaaaaaay harder than for someone coming from the US & co.
- user5994461 9y ago
  Not really. You change languages, currency, you need new bank accounts, new health insurance, completely different educational system. All administrations are different. The culture is also a shock. You will never find any of the grocery or shop you used to buy. A French going to the UK is not much different than a Mexican going to the USA. The only advantage is that you don't risk being deported by the police if they don't like you papers. You are effectively allowed to be there by the virtue of being European.
  - ido 9y ago
    That's a huge advantage tho, especially if you don't already have a job offer at hand. In fact if you're not in a well paid/in-demand profession like software dev it is almost impossible to immigrate legally from outside the EU.
  - someSven 9y ago
    What's it with the bank accounts? You can transfer money within the EU without any problems. I pay my rent in Spain from a German bank account. Though, getting wired internet is another thing, these companies seem to ignore European law.
- tobltobs 9y ago
  Not true for France. It might be easier for an EU citizen, but it is still a big waste of time. Getting a bank account still takes at least 3 visits. To hold a working card in your hand will take more then a month. Your driving licence is valid only for a year. And the Social Security nightmare is pretty much the same for everybody. And for the etc. prepare for that every bit will be a hassle.
  - rjsw 9y ago
    I think that the parent comment meant that you can easily use a bank account from another EU country in France. Opening a French bank account isn't complicated either if it is with a multinational bank, I have never been inside a French branch of mine.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      And the parent is mistaking, he's probably American. You cannot use a bank accounts well across EU country. Banks are a very localized service, they provide specific account number formats and payment methods by country. It will be a huge hassle day to day when you want a SEPA transfer and the guy expects a RIB or a sort code. It's worse with UK and Switzerland because they have a different currency. You really need a local bank account or you get bankrupted by the fees and the exchange rate. Incidentally they are the only places where there are the big tech and finance companies to work for. Most banks are national. There are very few banks that have an international presence, with decent service at the offices. The last time I went to a French bank in a different region than where I opened the account, they told me they can't do anything and I have to go to my "home" agency.
      - rjsw 9y ago
        I have UK and French accounts with the same bank. Both work fine for making payments in other EU countries. I can transfer money between them whenever I want (or spot a better exchange rate).
        9y ago
faster 9y ago
I did it in 2013, with a C&T visa and a very weak grasp of the language. It took about 40 hours (mostly standing in various lines) to get my residence card. Some bureaucrats fucked with me because they could, and some were helpful but still followed their own version of the rules. For example, one day photocopies of bills were acceptable for proof of address (but something else was not acceptable) and the very next day, only the original bill would be accepted. My daughter is fluent in French and she went with me to the prefecture once. She told me that the woman behind the glass was super rude, even though she put on a smile and pretended to be helpful. In fact, the next time I made it through the line there and explained what documents I had and why, the guy went to that woman's counter and chewed her out for being malicious (she had written a partial list of required docs instead of handing me the official complete-ish pre-printed list), and apologized to me for her behavior. Then he rejected my paperwork for a reason that was not documented anywhere. Catch-22s are everywhere; you can't open a bank account without proof of address, but you can't rent a place without a local bank account. It's the same for just about everything important. We had some French friends who cosigned for our apartment so we could get past that, and we were VERY fortunate to have friends who were willing to do that for us. A few people told me that everyone knows someone who can make fake paperwork; you just can't follow all the rules. C'est impossible! However, I would say that living in France was a fantastic experience, and I wish I had done it 10 years earlier.
- graniter 9y ago
  For the proof of residence, an option nowadays is to book a place long term on airbnb, say 6 months or more, and then put the utilities in your name. Even just one utility may be enough, like water or electricity, maybe even internet too. Then you can use the utility bill as proof of address without needing to sign a formal rental agreement. Note that most governmental places will not accept an AirBnB receipt as proof of address, but a bank might. Keep bills of everything. Always have copies of everything on hand (passports, work contract, birth certificates, visas, bills) and keep electronic copies that you can print off any time.
  - gcb0 9y ago
    don't do airbnb. for longer than 30 days there are hundreds of real state places that find much better place for half the airbnb price. absolutely everyone will speak fluent English (differently from airbnb). only downside is a deposit like any other rent
antod 9y ago
Heh, I work with a couple of Frenchmen (in NZ) and they always get a good chuckle when they hear Kiwis complain about UK bureaucracy :)

graniter 9y ago

I agree that other countries are difficult, too. France moreso I think, but not alone in all of this. Which is why I'm arguing the difficulty in working in or starting a company in France is not money, it's navigating all the administration you need to do. And you won't know all there is to do until you do it. And since the laws change periodically, not even the prefecture will always know. I had immigration lawyers get the prefecture to correct the residency card they were issuing for me because they did it under a different program. How are you to know if the administration is doing it all correctly? And how do you know what all there is to do? And it is all in French. You better learn French or bring a translator. That's what I did. And we haven't even mentioned income tax. As a US citizen you still have tax liability for income you make in France, meaning you still pay the US a decent amount of taxes you make in France. The US is one of the only countries that does this. So you'll need to hire an accountant familiar with this to do your US taxes, and you still have to pay your French taxes. And forming a business? Better find someone who knows what to do, and be prepared for it took take a long time, like a year. Small businesses aren't too bad, but if you want employees...that's a totally different story. Solve the above problems I listed and then France will be attractive to foreigners. Maybe there's a business idea: help companies and people navigate French administration. It's worth a ton of headache.

realusername 9y ago
While France isn't the best country in the world for easily paying your taxes, it's clearly much better than the US if it's what you are afraid of.
- graniter 9y ago
  Actually paying French income tax is pretty easy; it's paying US taxes if you are a US citizen working in France that's hard. I'm not sure Americans know that they are taxed on their income wherever they earn it. All other countries only tax your income that you earn in that country. French citizens don't pay income tax on their salary they earn in the US, but the reverse is not true. Not only do Americans have to pay French income tax, they have to pay US income tax, even if they earn all their salary in France and stayed in France the entire year. And it gets complicated how to calculate, which is why I pay HR Block $700 to do it for me. This isn't France's fault. It's the US's.

dottedmag 9y ago

Russia->Norway. One visit to police station on arrival, everything else is done for you (by the state, not by the company!)

bernardlunn 9y ago
Wow, really, like single window immigration? Cool

bernardlunn 9y ago

Echo that. Have moved more than once and all bureaucracies suck and cannot be dismantled overnight. A simple how to guide would make a big difference.

maccard 9y ago

I moved to the UK (from Ireland). It was relatively painless. No visas, no registration as a foreign worker, just show up and tell the JobCenter you need a National Insurance Number (which took almost a month from the first phone call to getting a cancallation, to getting the number in the post). Getting a bank account was tricky though, most banks wanted a proof of address on a utility bill, but I couldn't sign up to sky/etc without a bank account. In the end, HSBC gave me an account with my passport as proof of who I said I was. Other than that, it was as difficult as moving city. Obviously not everyone has it this easy.

skrause 9y ago
> I moved to the UK (from Ireland). It was relatively painless. That's because both are EU countries (for now at least). Moving to France will also be much easier if you're an EU citizen, you won't have to deal with residence permits and your driver's license will also be valid.
- tobltobs 9y ago
  You don't have to deal with residence permits but you will have to get a residence card, because without you will have lots of problems. Your driving licence is valid for one year, after that you have to convert your licence. Depending on what classes you have this will require medical tests and additional examinations.
user5994461 9y ago
Your NIN is proof of address, if you can get it first. A company can give you a letter to confirm that you work for them, that's also usable as a proof of address.
- maccard 9y ago
  It took me a month to get my NIN, which would have meant I wouldn't have been paid, and would have been unable to pay rent. (First job out of University). None of the banks I spoke to (TSB, Santander, nationwide, RBS) would accept a letter from my employer

megido 9y ago

I can speak about Netherlands. The process is super easy and super smooth. * I got my residence permit on 3rd day of arriving to country * I opened bank account on 4th day * I've opened my insurance by just going online and not talking to people at all Dutch system is performing very well on bringing tech talent. There's this "Expat Center" that handles whole stuff. In addition to that our company (Booking.com) makes your move even smoother by assisting your relocation and by providing you temporary stay until you find your dreamy apartment. Please be welcomed at Booking.com in Amsterdam headquarters! * software developer: http://grnh.se/0fotp8 http://grnh.se/0fotp8 * front-end developer: http://grnh.se/xl658q http://grnh.se/xl658q * product owner (e-commerce): http://grnh.se/6gfqds http://grnh.se/6gfqds * ux designer: http://grnh.se/1qhylg http://grnh.se/1qhylg

nulldev 9y ago
Do you guys still work with a predominantly Perl stack?
- megido 9y ago
  Yeap. But lots of other stuff is also being used nowadays, including java, python, go, etc. depending on the product.
- ishtu 9y ago
  Not sure about Booking, but at Catawiki (also NL-based) we are looking for Ruby developers willing to relocate. Contact me via email in my profile if you are interested!
graniter 9y ago
This is how it should be done. Sounds like both the government and your company are doing it right and it's paying off because your are doing well recruiting talent. This is what France should do. But I do feel like there is some odd satisfaction in France both among the French and expats of having paid their dues, made it through the process and are sort of proud of it. Almost like they don;t want to make it too easy.

neversorry 9y ago

I can speak for Ireland. I am from a south asian country and the who process in Ireland has been a breeze. Visa and permit? Easy. Just go to the office, present the documents and everything comes in post two weeks later. Register with social welfare? great. Just go there and they set you up. You get a card and setup the account online. Everything else take care of by the employer and revenue departments. Driving license? Take the written test and 300 euros for the lessons. If you pass, you can drive (with a driver with full license). Take the test 6 months later for full license. Yes, here and there you do meet someone who tries to give you a hard time. but all in all, a very positive experience.

tobltobs 9y ago

Migrating to Switzerland was a breeze. Everything was set in under a week. Founding a LTD was also easy. In France it took months to get everything solved for immigration (as a EU citizen). I am still struggling to solve those various puzzle pieces for founding a company. The kafkaesque RSI alone requires more time and effort then all the bureaucry in Switzerland together.

Chris2048 9y ago
Can you live outside France, and commute in to work? E.g Swiss bank account, company etc.

mtremsal 9y ago

Moving to the US was easier than navigating the French administration as a French citizen. I was able to open a bank account on day 2, without an ID. Obtaining the ID required a trip to the DMV, which while time-consuming, wasn't an especially complex endeavour. Only issue I ran into was the government shutdown, and that affected everyone.

d--b 9y ago
I don't know how you did it. Every bank I went to asked me for 2 official ID documents (which I didn't have). Getting a social security number was not particularly hard Having no credit history was a pain in the ass. DMV was annoying. That my wife could not work on my visa was a problem. The green card process was long and painful. Showing your genitals to a doctor to get a residency card was an unexpected and unpleasant part of the process.
- tapatio 9y ago
  Did they cup them?
- mtremsal 9y ago
  I believe opening a bank account has different requirements in different states. In NYC I only had to show my French passport, work visa, and full-time local work contract. The process seemed designed to allow even unlawful immigrants to get access to banking. In particular I believe the IVR had different decision trees in English and Spanish. Interesting. edit: I agree having no credit history was a major PITA.
- gcb0 9y ago
  don't forget the mandatory tuberculosis culture test under your skin if you are from a 1st world country that uses vaccines.
gcb0 9y ago
I have never heard of anyone ever getting a driver's license in 2 days. unless your bank accepted the matrix printer temporary one that doesn't even have a b&w photo.