10 ms·

I live and work in France and I am well versed in this type of Visa. It's a very nice arrangement, but it's still France. It's still dealing with the same admin

I live and work in France and I am well versed in this type of Visa. It's a very nice arrangement, but it's still France. It's still dealing with the same administrative burdens for everything else. You don't get treated special, you just have a special deal. I've said before that if France wants to attract foreign talent what they need to do is assign someone in the French administration to help workers get established. That is the hard part about coming to work in France. If you've dealt with the DMV in the US, imagine that for everything. You can't just walk into a bank and open an account. You can make an appointment for next week...which is your first consultation. You'll need to bring a long of documentation for your second appointment the week after. You won't get your bank card for awhile, and by the way you'll have to activate it before you can use it. That might take a week. You'll need to go to Paris for a medical check that you can do your job. All French employees must do this. And you have to do it every two years. Pee in a cup. Undress over there. You'll need to go to the prefecture to get your residence permit. It took me 5 months to get my initial appointment and a total of 9 months to get my card, even though the "long term visa" in your passport is only good for 3 months. Some people I know waited 2.5 years for their residence card, another over a year. More? The French healthcare system is pretty good, but you won't get on it until after several trips to the Social Security office. Whoops, your entire file was sent back to you because they needed some additional piece of documentation they didn't tell you about. Make another appointment. Repeat. Repeat. Drivers license? If you are 1 of 14 states you can exhcange easily, but you only have 1 year to do that, after which you have to go to driving school. 3000 euros. Better learn French to pass the test. Better learn French to navigate all the adminstration. So Year 1 you will not be productive. You will be running around trying to stay legally. For an entire year. Ask me how I know.

grp 9y ago
You'll need to go to Paris for a medical check that you can do your job. All French employees must do this. And you have to do it every two years. Pee in a cup. Undress over there. Is it a joke? Never heard of that in 30 years..
- marsRoverDev 9y ago
  I work for a major French engineering company, and have done so in France - I don't know what job OP has, but my company does NOT make you do this. Also worth noting that I've had to do this in other countries; I'd say it's more problematic elsewhere. I would however say that yes, the French bureaucracy is something else entirely. But if you are friendly to them and show your face things will happen faster.
- thbt 9y ago
  I work in tech in France and in my personal experience, this is fake. You do have to get a medical exam upon employment but that's it. You'll have to get your shirt off for a heart exam. But it doesn't have to be in Paris, no peeing in a cup, and you won't have to do it every 2 years.
  - graniter 9y ago
    Well I did on the visa being mentioned so I have first hand experience. Not fake.
  - rguillebert 9y ago
    I used to work in tech in France (now I'm in the UK) and I had to pee in a cup, so YMMV I guess.
- tangue 9y ago
  Yep the "visite médicale d'embauche" shocks a lot of foreigners... It was suppressed in January [0] for white collar workers but in risky jobs it's still mandatory. [0] http://www.lemonde.fr/emploi/article/2017/03/16/la-fin-de-la-visite-medicale-d-embauche_5095566_1698637.html http://www.lemonde.fr/emploi/article/2017/03/16/la-fin-de-la...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Luc 9y ago
  They're not selling it very well. In certain industries, the company pays for you to go and get a thorough physical checkup every two years, on company time. It's the unions that negotiated this, it's a benefit to the employee.
d--b 9y ago
I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.
- user5994461 9y ago
  As a French who migrated off, going to the UK was so easy. I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.
  - palunon 9y ago
    Note that immigration inside the EU is way easier than with other countries. You don't need a visa, working permit, special bank account (for US citizens, since the bank must report income, etc, to the US gov), your driving license is valid, etc.
    - oblio 9y ago
      And immigration to the EU for someone not coming from developed countries is waaaaaaay harder than for someone coming from the US & co.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      Not really. You change languages, currency, you need new bank accounts, new health insurance, completely different educational system. All administrations are different. The culture is also a shock. You will never find any of the grocery or shop you used to buy. A French going to the UK is not much different than a Mexican going to the USA. The only advantage is that you don't risk being deported by the police if they don't like you papers. You are effectively allowed to be there by the virtue of being European.
      - 9y ago
graniter 9y ago
Just to add one more point, on the website it says: "Dependent children under the age of 18 do NOT need a residence permit. However, an underage child travel document (‘document de circulation pour étranger mineur’ – DCEM) must be obtained at your local Préfecture after your arrival in France." In my prefecture we have been trying to get a DCEM for each child for 1 year. The prefecture is not doing them at all, and they do not know when they will again. And the prefecture says the children cannot re-enter France without them. Our immigration lawyer says "as a practical matter" border control will allow the kids back in if you fly into France (but maybe not another EU country). The residency for kids is a pretty good deal, but you just may not actually be able to get it (maybe in another year?). But I actually do really like France. I want to stay here awhile. I've done everything above board, legally, legitimately. The people are really great, not like the stereotypes. It's worth all the hassle I believe, but I think people need to be aware of the reality of the difficulty of the process that France is advertising in trying to attract foreign tech workers.
GoToRO 9y ago
I've seen some pretty technical things done by some french developers, so for sure they have the talent. Why there are no noticeable companies coming out of France then? I just think the same, they are killing it with bureaucracy.
literallycancer 9y ago
Why not get a bank account in a different Eurozone country? SEPA transfers are required to be the same price as domestic in those countries.
- tom_mellior 9y ago
  1. That's not necessarily easy for people coming from outside the Eurozone. 2. For people from inside the Eurozone, it might still not work: I've had a work contract in a Eurozone country that specified that I had to have a bank account in that country. Not sure why, not sure whether it's legal, but not necessarily something you want to fight. 3. In France, it would not work as a practical matter. In other countries, you give people your IBAN in an email and you're set; in France, they require you to give them something called a RIB, which is a piece of paper (or a PDF) issued by your bank carrying your IBAN. Foreign banks do not issue things that would be accepted as a RIB in France, so your employer would say they can't transfer your money. Stupid? Yes! Everyday reality in France? Also yes, sadly.
  - eolides 9y ago
    A few years ago, my bank did not issue RIB online and I only had one left but needed two of them. So I just fired up LaTeX and did my own, correctly formated according to my IBAN and BIC number. It was perfectly fine and I used this files until I left my bank. The main problem living in france with a foreign account is that most companies (such as phone and energy companies) does not accept foreign account for SEPA debit mandate (IBAN starting with anything else than FR). It is a major problem for the development of european fintechs development in france, such as N26 german fintech.
- graniter 9y ago
  US citizens should note that US Federal law requires you to file a statement of your overseas accounts every year, and your foreign bank must report your assets to the US government. There are steep fines if the foreign bank does not comply. This puts a burden and risk on many banks so they sometimes refuse to let Americans open bank accounts with them. And even when they do open an account for you, expect to provide a lot of official documentation (passports, social security number). Just another benefit of being from the land of the free. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...
cknight 9y ago
It was a nightmare for my partner and I as well. We lived together in Germany for 3 years with no problems (We are Australian), but moving to Lyon nearly broke me. I won't go in to details (unless someone asks) but one thing that I want to share is a great option for expats needing a French bank account quickly. It's called Compte Nickel: a fairly new (at the time) startup that is essentially a small bank-like system which requires only a French mailing address, a passport, €20, and a visit to a participating newsagent. That gets you a bank account with the required RIB so you can get your salary paid, use ATMs, make online payments, and the like. It comes with a Mastercard debit card which the newsagent hands you upon setup in-store. The account has some limits on transactions to prevent laundering but nothing we found a hindrance. It costs €20 a year. If anyone is having issues getting a French bank account just so they can get on their feet, it will be of use to you: https://compte-nickel.fr https://compte-nickel.fr We've since moved back to Germany, which was a huge relief. Being able to just email the local immigration office to give some info or agree on an appointment time... unthinkable in France.
- graniter 9y ago
  I'm interested in hearing more because my Year 1 in France was very stressful and I am curious to know if it was for other people. And perhaps some poor soul reading this will know how to avoid some pain.
  - cknight 9y ago
    Aside from the banking tip above, I am not sure I have any other tips for avoiding stress on arrival in France aside from simply "don't go". As a same-sex couple who aren't married we also have some challenges most couples won't face. France, like the USA, does not recognise civil unions or anything other than a marriage when it comes to immigration. You're either married or single in their view. While for the USA, I remember we simply could not migrate there as a couple, the French at least acknowledged our situation and said I could have a visitor's visa and then get married once settled there with my visitor visa validated to become a residence permit (duration: 1 year). The catch with the visitor visa however is that I had to fund my own health insurance (I found some expat insurance with Allianz which the French consulate said was acceptable) and also had to swear in a written statement that I would not seek gainful employment in France. It's hardly ideal. My partner is a scientist, and because he was offered a research position at Lyon's university, he was given an expedited residence permit process. He went to OFII (immigration office) to confirm his residence permit about 3 weeks upon arrival in the country, and was exempted from all medical checks. His health insurance was provided using the French social security system. That last part took a while, but otherwise for him it was smooth as butter. I don't see why France couldn't apply this system to promising tech talent from abroad. Now, for me the immigration process on arrival meant waiting 3 months for a letter from OFII for an appointment, which I couldn't make. That meant another 3 month wait, followed by medical checks including an X-ray, a talking-down-to by some immigration officials surprised that I hadn't learnt much of the language, and then a stamp on my visa. Now both residents, we could have applied for marriage at this stage, but we actually left for Germany just 2 weeks later - in France there is a one month cool-down period between marriage application and ceremony, so the timing wasn't possible. In any case, I would rather have a real wedding back home when it's finally legalised, rather than over here in Europe. No-one could really come... Before I discovered Compte Nickel we had a hell of a time trying to get a bank account. We had an "attestation" from the university's housing board that we had an apartment reserved for us, but the bank first told us it was older than 3 months so no longer valid. Upon getting a new one the bank then said an attestation wasn't good enough anyway and we needed a rental contract to open an account. We were staying in an AirBnB for our first month in Lyon and while the first two weeks looking around were pleasant enough, trying to organise long term accommodation and a way to get paid was super stressful. The university accommodation ended up being woefully inadequate so we cancelled that before we set foot in the place. Thanks to Compte Nickel and my partner's willingness to just pay a real estate company to find us an apartment, we got things sorted with mere days to spare before the AirBnB time was up, and things would have really gone haywire. In France we made friends with a Finnish couple, an American couple, and a Finnish/French couple. 2/3 were also academics, and as married couples would have had much smoother immigration processes than ours. Despite this, all three planned to leave shortly after we did. None of us really liked it there. Lyon's suburbs are particularly filthy but even if I was in a smaller, prettier town I can't imagine being able to last very long.
vidoc 9y ago
> If you've dealt with the DMV in the US, imagine that for everything. You can't just walk into a bank and open an account I know the DMV is the ultimate symbol, to a lot of Americans, of the ultimate administrative clutter. But trust me, if any 'public services' of France could run with just half the throughput and efficiency of the DMV, people would be more than happy with that :P -> For the ultimate kafkaesque experience, just try get a car registration outside of Paris intra-murros, say, Neuf-Trois. You'll discover an alternative universe and might realize that hey, the DMV is awesome!
on_and_off 9y ago
Disclaimer : I might be biased : I am currently waiting for my H1B to process in order to move to San Francisco. I have worked in France for most of my career so far. My first hand experience is of course limited (I only have 5 years of experience) but I really feel that the FrenchTech is overblown. There are some great startups but they are extremely rare. We have started hiring non french people in the startup I work for one year ago and the culture clash is tremendous. Things that have bothered me for a while are doubly strange for them : - Everything takes a LOT of time and nobody prioritizes making the process more efficient. There are many bottlenecks.. after discussing with colleagues in non French companies, they have all found solutions in order to solve them. Here there is no will to do so. So it can take weeks to merge simple changes. - very large aversion to new technology. Pretty much constantly lagging 1 to 2 years behind the rest of the community. -LOTS of office politics I don't expect any of these to become perfect in another country but I am more than ready for a change of air.
- Jyaif 9y ago
  - very large aversion to new technology. Pretty much constantly lagging 1 to 2 years behind the rest of the community. If by "technology" you mean web framework, then that sounds like a feature!
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    Nah, I mean practical libraries that would actually help our codebase.. In my stack (Android) : started adopting EventBus while Rx was already pretty mature, deep into spaghetti code architecture while it has already been showed that variations around MVP or MVVM would be very beneficial. I can't go into too much detail here but when there are some very big challenges around this product which faces an enormous memory usage and tons of memory leaks. I am very practical and don't feel the need to use all the latest toys but here these are cases where the product could have been greatly improved by being a part of the community instead of living in an ivory tower where you are absolutely distrustful of external code to a ridiculous degree.

grp 9y ago

You'll need to go to Paris for a medical check that you can do your job. All French employees must do this. And you have to do it every two years. Pee in a cup. Undress over there. Is it a joke? Never heard of that in 30 years..

marsRoverDev 9y ago
I work for a major French engineering company, and have done so in France - I don't know what job OP has, but my company does NOT make you do this. Also worth noting that I've had to do this in other countries; I'd say it's more problematic elsewhere. I would however say that yes, the French bureaucracy is something else entirely. But if you are friendly to them and show your face things will happen faster.
thbt 9y ago
I work in tech in France and in my personal experience, this is fake. You do have to get a medical exam upon employment but that's it. You'll have to get your shirt off for a heart exam. But it doesn't have to be in Paris, no peeing in a cup, and you won't have to do it every 2 years.
- graniter 9y ago
  Well I did on the visa being mentioned so I have first hand experience. Not fake.
- rguillebert 9y ago
  I used to work in tech in France (now I'm in the UK) and I had to pee in a cup, so YMMV I guess.
tangue 9y ago
Yep the "visite médicale d'embauche" shocks a lot of foreigners... It was suppressed in January [0] for white collar workers but in risky jobs it's still mandatory. [0] http://www.lemonde.fr/emploi/article/2017/03/16/la-fin-de-la-visite-medicale-d-embauche_5095566_1698637.html http://www.lemonde.fr/emploi/article/2017/03/16/la-fin-de-la...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Luc 9y ago
They're not selling it very well. In certain industries, the company pays for you to go and get a thorough physical checkup every two years, on company time. It's the unions that negotiated this, it's a benefit to the employee.

d--b 9y ago

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

user5994461 9y ago
As a French who migrated off, going to the UK was so easy. I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.
- palunon 9y ago
  Note that immigration inside the EU is way easier than with other countries. You don't need a visa, working permit, special bank account (for US citizens, since the bank must report income, etc, to the US gov), your driving license is valid, etc.
  - oblio 9y ago
    And immigration to the EU for someone not coming from developed countries is waaaaaaay harder than for someone coming from the US & co.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Not really. You change languages, currency, you need new bank accounts, new health insurance, completely different educational system. All administrations are different. The culture is also a shock. You will never find any of the grocery or shop you used to buy. A French going to the UK is not much different than a Mexican going to the USA. The only advantage is that you don't risk being deported by the police if they don't like you papers. You are effectively allowed to be there by the virtue of being European.
    - 9y ago

graniter 9y ago

Just to add one more point, on the website it says: "Dependent children under the age of 18 do NOT need a residence permit. However, an underage child travel document (‘document de circulation pour étranger mineur’ – DCEM) must be obtained at your local Préfecture after your arrival in France." In my prefecture we have been trying to get a DCEM for each child for 1 year. The prefecture is not doing them at all, and they do not know when they will again. And the prefecture says the children cannot re-enter France without them. Our immigration lawyer says "as a practical matter" border control will allow the kids back in if you fly into France (but maybe not another EU country). The residency for kids is a pretty good deal, but you just may not actually be able to get it (maybe in another year?). But I actually do really like France. I want to stay here awhile. I've done everything above board, legally, legitimately. The people are really great, not like the stereotypes. It's worth all the hassle I believe, but I think people need to be aware of the reality of the difficulty of the process that France is advertising in trying to attract foreign tech workers.

GoToRO 9y ago

I've seen some pretty technical things done by some french developers, so for sure they have the talent. Why there are no noticeable companies coming out of France then? I just think the same, they are killing it with bureaucracy.

literallycancer 9y ago

Why not get a bank account in a different Eurozone country? SEPA transfers are required to be the same price as domestic in those countries.

tom_mellior 9y ago
1. That's not necessarily easy for people coming from outside the Eurozone. 2. For people from inside the Eurozone, it might still not work: I've had a work contract in a Eurozone country that specified that I had to have a bank account in that country. Not sure why, not sure whether it's legal, but not necessarily something you want to fight. 3. In France, it would not work as a practical matter. In other countries, you give people your IBAN in an email and you're set; in France, they require you to give them something called a RIB, which is a piece of paper (or a PDF) issued by your bank carrying your IBAN. Foreign banks do not issue things that would be accepted as a RIB in France, so your employer would say they can't transfer your money. Stupid? Yes! Everyday reality in France? Also yes, sadly.
- eolides 9y ago
  A few years ago, my bank did not issue RIB online and I only had one left but needed two of them. So I just fired up LaTeX and did my own, correctly formated according to my IBAN and BIC number. It was perfectly fine and I used this files until I left my bank. The main problem living in france with a foreign account is that most companies (such as phone and energy companies) does not accept foreign account for SEPA debit mandate (IBAN starting with anything else than FR). It is a major problem for the development of european fintechs development in france, such as N26 german fintech.
graniter 9y ago
US citizens should note that US Federal law requires you to file a statement of your overseas accounts every year, and your foreign bank must report your assets to the US government. There are steep fines if the foreign bank does not comply. This puts a burden and risk on many banks so they sometimes refuse to let Americans open bank accounts with them. And even when they do open an account for you, expect to provide a lot of official documentation (passports, social security number). Just another benefit of being from the land of the free. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...

cknight 9y ago

It was a nightmare for my partner and I as well. We lived together in Germany for 3 years with no problems (We are Australian), but moving to Lyon nearly broke me. I won't go in to details (unless someone asks) but one thing that I want to share is a great option for expats needing a French bank account quickly. It's called Compte Nickel: a fairly new (at the time) startup that is essentially a small bank-like system which requires only a French mailing address, a passport, €20, and a visit to a participating newsagent. That gets you a bank account with the required RIB so you can get your salary paid, use ATMs, make online payments, and the like. It comes with a Mastercard debit card which the newsagent hands you upon setup in-store. The account has some limits on transactions to prevent laundering but nothing we found a hindrance. It costs €20 a year. If anyone is having issues getting a French bank account just so they can get on their feet, it will be of use to you: https://compte-nickel.fr https://compte-nickel.fr We've since moved back to Germany, which was a huge relief. Being able to just email the local immigration office to give some info or agree on an appointment time... unthinkable in France.

graniter 9y ago
I'm interested in hearing more because my Year 1 in France was very stressful and I am curious to know if it was for other people. And perhaps some poor soul reading this will know how to avoid some pain.
- cknight 9y ago
  Aside from the banking tip above, I am not sure I have any other tips for avoiding stress on arrival in France aside from simply "don't go". As a same-sex couple who aren't married we also have some challenges most couples won't face. France, like the USA, does not recognise civil unions or anything other than a marriage when it comes to immigration. You're either married or single in their view. While for the USA, I remember we simply could not migrate there as a couple, the French at least acknowledged our situation and said I could have a visitor's visa and then get married once settled there with my visitor visa validated to become a residence permit (duration: 1 year). The catch with the visitor visa however is that I had to fund my own health insurance (I found some expat insurance with Allianz which the French consulate said was acceptable) and also had to swear in a written statement that I would not seek gainful employment in France. It's hardly ideal. My partner is a scientist, and because he was offered a research position at Lyon's university, he was given an expedited residence permit process. He went to OFII (immigration office) to confirm his residence permit about 3 weeks upon arrival in the country, and was exempted from all medical checks. His health insurance was provided using the French social security system. That last part took a while, but otherwise for him it was smooth as butter. I don't see why France couldn't apply this system to promising tech talent from abroad. Now, for me the immigration process on arrival meant waiting 3 months for a letter from OFII for an appointment, which I couldn't make. That meant another 3 month wait, followed by medical checks including an X-ray, a talking-down-to by some immigration officials surprised that I hadn't learnt much of the language, and then a stamp on my visa. Now both residents, we could have applied for marriage at this stage, but we actually left for Germany just 2 weeks later - in France there is a one month cool-down period between marriage application and ceremony, so the timing wasn't possible. In any case, I would rather have a real wedding back home when it's finally legalised, rather than over here in Europe. No-one could really come... Before I discovered Compte Nickel we had a hell of a time trying to get a bank account. We had an "attestation" from the university's housing board that we had an apartment reserved for us, but the bank first told us it was older than 3 months so no longer valid. Upon getting a new one the bank then said an attestation wasn't good enough anyway and we needed a rental contract to open an account. We were staying in an AirBnB for our first month in Lyon and while the first two weeks looking around were pleasant enough, trying to organise long term accommodation and a way to get paid was super stressful. The university accommodation ended up being woefully inadequate so we cancelled that before we set foot in the place. Thanks to Compte Nickel and my partner's willingness to just pay a real estate company to find us an apartment, we got things sorted with mere days to spare before the AirBnB time was up, and things would have really gone haywire. In France we made friends with a Finnish couple, an American couple, and a Finnish/French couple. 2/3 were also academics, and as married couples would have had much smoother immigration processes than ours. Despite this, all three planned to leave shortly after we did. None of us really liked it there. Lyon's suburbs are particularly filthy but even if I was in a smaller, prettier town I can't imagine being able to last very long.

vidoc 9y ago

> If you've dealt with the DMV in the US, imagine that for everything. You can't just walk into a bank and open an account I know the DMV is the ultimate symbol, to a lot of Americans, of the ultimate administrative clutter. But trust me, if any 'public services' of France could run with just half the throughput and efficiency of the DMV, people would be more than happy with that :P -> For the ultimate kafkaesque experience, just try get a car registration outside of Paris intra-murros, say, Neuf-Trois. You'll discover an alternative universe and might realize that hey, the DMV is awesome!

on_and_off 9y ago

Disclaimer : I might be biased : I am currently waiting for my H1B to process in order to move to San Francisco. I have worked in France for most of my career so far. My first hand experience is of course limited (I only have 5 years of experience) but I really feel that the FrenchTech is overblown. There are some great startups but they are extremely rare. We have started hiring non french people in the startup I work for one year ago and the culture clash is tremendous. Things that have bothered me for a while are doubly strange for them : - Everything takes a LOT of time and nobody prioritizes making the process more efficient. There are many bottlenecks.. after discussing with colleagues in non French companies, they have all found solutions in order to solve them. Here there is no will to do so. So it can take weeks to merge simple changes. - very large aversion to new technology. Pretty much constantly lagging 1 to 2 years behind the rest of the community. -LOTS of office politics I don't expect any of these to become perfect in another country but I am more than ready for a change of air.

Jyaif 9y ago
- very large aversion to new technology. Pretty much constantly lagging 1 to 2 years behind the rest of the community. If by "technology" you mean web framework, then that sounds like a feature!
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Nah, I mean practical libraries that would actually help our codebase.. In my stack (Android) : started adopting EventBus while Rx was already pretty mature, deep into spaghetti code architecture while it has already been showed that variations around MVP or MVVM would be very beneficial. I can't go into too much detail here but when there are some very big challenges around this product which faces an enormous memory usage and tons of memory leaks. I am very practical and don't feel the need to use all the latest toys but here these are cases where the product could have been greatly improved by being a part of the community instead of living in an ivory tower where you are absolutely distrustful of external code to a ridiculous degree.