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> the ability to speak half decent French After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to

by zmb_ 9y ago

> the ability to speak half decent French After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life, or paying the significant opportunity cost of learning a new language -- which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business, and which won't help you in the next country in which you live. What is needed is a joint common language (English) that everyone in the EU learns starting in kindergarten and in which you're guaranteed state services in every member state. But there is no chance the French and German speakers would ever agree to that, it is like a religious issue.

nraynaud 9y ago
Yep, but the Brits are were pain in the butt so we decided not to use English for that role, because that would be rewarding a kid for throwing his feces at a party. When they are gone, I guess the discussion could be re-opened.
- peteretep 9y ago
  Or when we come crawling back, which I am hopeful is becoming an ever larger possibility
- toyg 9y ago
  It won't and it shouldn't. The French will never, ever agree to anything that officially places their language on a lower level. They might accept de-facto lingua franca status for English, but they'll never sign anything that mandates it or recognises it. Discussing language is a recipe for pointless strife; the next step really should be taxation standards. This said, the market is adjusting on its own. EU customers are voting with their wallets, and the more they move around, the more English-speaking cross-border businesses flourish.
  - oblio 9y ago
    France doesn't even recognize any other language than French within France, as far as I know. They have no minority languages, even though they have, and used to have, minorities.
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > France doesn't even recognize any other language than French within France Officially, France (and the Academy) only barely recognize the existence of French spoken in their former colonies, and even then only when it's convenient (to maximize the count of the number of French speakers). They go out of their way to try to "preserve" the French that is spoken by white French people in France itself as the only official version of French, so they sure as heck aren't going to recognize other languages spoken in France by minorities other than French.
      - oblio 9y ago
        I don't want this discussion to turn something it shouldn't be. I'm talking about other European natives here, such as the Basques or Bretons, for example. So no colonies involved or other tricky subjects.
      - literallycancer 9y ago
        Historically, they treated other languages within mainland France just as badly, which is what the parent probably refers to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha My grandparents speak Breton too, though not with me. As children, they used to have their fingers smacked if they happened to say a word in Breton. Back then, the French of the Republic, one and indivisible, was to be heard in all schools and those who dared challenge this policy were humiliated with having to wear a clog around their necks or kneel down on a ruler under a sign that read: "It is forbidden to spit on the ground and speak Breton".[13] That's the reason why some older folks won't transmit the language to their children: it brings trouble upon yourself...
RandomBookmarks 9y ago
Progress in this area is very slow, but there is progress. Example: Some court proceedings in Germany can now be done in English: http://www.fgvw.de/en/news/archive-2015/the-introduction-of-english-as-an-official-language-in-german-courts http://www.fgvw.de/en/news/archive-2015/the-introduction-of-...
- germanier 9y ago
  "Now" is an overstatement. That proposal was still not debated in parliament (it was officially proposed by the states in 2011 and 2014) and is not close to becoming a law. Until then, no English court cases.
colde 9y ago
Scandinavia is already part where there. Almost everyone in Denmark, Sweden and Norway speaks English at least decently well. I don't know about Sweden and Norway, but at least in Denmark there is a lot of things that you can get in English as well. But it would probably still be somewhat tricky.
ghgr 9y ago
> What is needed is a joint common language Great! I propose Spanish, being the second most spoken language by number of native speakers (behind Chinese), and given the relevance of Spain through history in Europe. (this comment was only half joking. It's easy to impose a global language when it's yours, but you see, it's a different story when you need to learn a different one).
- ben_w 9y ago
  Estas vera. Ni devos Esperanton lerni.
- beisner 9y ago
  Although, if we're realistically considering the present situation, the number of people who already speak English as either a native or non-native language are roughly even with the number that speak Mandarin, and far exceed that number for Spanish-speakers. Only looking at Europe, this still holds. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_num...
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    And how relevant is the average Mandarin speaker to the western workforce? Mandarin speaking is not as distributed as English.
peterunold 9y ago
I'm currently somewhat fluent in 3 europeans languages and will soon attend a month long intensive course to beef up my 4th(french). Yes it's a bother but it's also the charm of Europe.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  Surely the speaking of some other language is the charm? The lack of a common language is a pain.
oblio 9y ago
> which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business Debatable. I feel that business level fluency/proficiency is easy: limited vocabulary, limited jargon, overall formal tone. Getting to a conversational level in any kind of social settings, now that's the hard part of any language, in my opinion.
mrkrab 9y ago
You'll take my own language from my cold, dying hands. I'm sure most Europeans feel the same. I'm not going to go around speaking fucking English. That will never ever happen.
- devdas 9y ago
  No one is going to do that. But having every government (and everything else mandatory) service available in a common language, regardless of country would be fantastic. Push the burden of language on the entities which can afford to absorb the cost best.

by zmb_ 9y ago

nraynaud 9y ago

Yep, but the Brits are were pain in the butt so we decided not to use English for that role, because that would be rewarding a kid for throwing his feces at a party. When they are gone, I guess the discussion could be re-opened.

peteretep 9y ago
Or when we come crawling back, which I am hopeful is becoming an ever larger possibility
toyg 9y ago
It won't and it shouldn't. The French will never, ever agree to anything that officially places their language on a lower level. They might accept de-facto lingua franca status for English, but they'll never sign anything that mandates it or recognises it. Discussing language is a recipe for pointless strife; the next step really should be taxation standards. This said, the market is adjusting on its own. EU customers are voting with their wallets, and the more they move around, the more English-speaking cross-border businesses flourish.
- oblio 9y ago
  France doesn't even recognize any other language than French within France, as far as I know. They have no minority languages, even though they have, and used to have, minorities.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > France doesn't even recognize any other language than French within France Officially, France (and the Academy) only barely recognize the existence of French spoken in their former colonies, and even then only when it's convenient (to maximize the count of the number of French speakers). They go out of their way to try to "preserve" the French that is spoken by white French people in France itself as the only official version of French, so they sure as heck aren't going to recognize other languages spoken in France by minorities other than French.
    - oblio 9y ago
      I don't want this discussion to turn something it shouldn't be. I'm talking about other European natives here, such as the Basques or Bretons, for example. So no colonies involved or other tricky subjects.
    - literallycancer 9y ago
      Historically, they treated other languages within mainland France just as badly, which is what the parent probably refers to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha My grandparents speak Breton too, though not with me. As children, they used to have their fingers smacked if they happened to say a word in Breton. Back then, the French of the Republic, one and indivisible, was to be heard in all schools and those who dared challenge this policy were humiliated with having to wear a clog around their necks or kneel down on a ruler under a sign that read: "It is forbidden to spit on the ground and speak Breton".[13] That's the reason why some older folks won't transmit the language to their children: it brings trouble upon yourself...

RandomBookmarks 9y ago

Progress in this area is very slow, but there is progress. Example: Some court proceedings in Germany can now be done in English: http://www.fgvw.de/en/news/archive-2015/the-introduction-of-english-as-an-official-language-in-german-courts http://www.fgvw.de/en/news/archive-2015/the-introduction-of-...

germanier 9y ago
"Now" is an overstatement. That proposal was still not debated in parliament (it was officially proposed by the states in 2011 and 2014) and is not close to becoming a law. Until then, no English court cases.

colde 9y ago

Scandinavia is already part where there. Almost everyone in Denmark, Sweden and Norway speaks English at least decently well. I don't know about Sweden and Norway, but at least in Denmark there is a lot of things that you can get in English as well. But it would probably still be somewhat tricky.

ghgr 9y ago

> What is needed is a joint common language Great! I propose Spanish, being the second most spoken language by number of native speakers (behind Chinese), and given the relevance of Spain through history in Europe. (this comment was only half joking. It's easy to impose a global language when it's yours, but you see, it's a different story when you need to learn a different one).

ben_w 9y ago
Estas vera. Ni devos Esperanton lerni.
beisner 9y ago
Although, if we're realistically considering the present situation, the number of people who already speak English as either a native or non-native language are roughly even with the number that speak Mandarin, and far exceed that number for Spanish-speakers. Only looking at Europe, this still holds. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_num...
- Chris2048 9y ago
  And how relevant is the average Mandarin speaker to the western workforce? Mandarin speaking is not as distributed as English.

peterunold 9y ago

I'm currently somewhat fluent in 3 europeans languages and will soon attend a month long intensive course to beef up my 4th(french). Yes it's a bother but it's also the charm of Europe.

Chris2048 9y ago
Surely the speaking of some other language is the charm? The lack of a common language is a pain.

oblio 9y ago

> which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business Debatable. I feel that business level fluency/proficiency is easy: limited vocabulary, limited jargon, overall formal tone. Getting to a conversational level in any kind of social settings, now that's the hard part of any language, in my opinion.

mrkrab 9y ago

You'll take my own language from my cold, dying hands. I'm sure most Europeans feel the same. I'm not going to go around speaking fucking English. That will never ever happen.

devdas 9y ago
No one is going to do that. But having every government (and everything else mandatory) service available in a common language, regardless of country would be fantastic. Push the burden of language on the entities which can afford to absorb the cost best.