4 ms·

At least 20% of French people express capitalism-hostile opinions (and it goes well beyond Mélenchon voters). You face hostility as soon as you make money, with

by tajen 9y ago

At least 20% of French people express capitalism-hostile opinions (and it goes well beyond Mélenchon voters). You face hostility as soon as you make money, with consequences ranging from being denied places in the kindergarten to the "petit Gregory" affair where the 5 years old son of a newly promoted team leader was drowned. I'm trying to show off as much as I can that I'm sponsoring poverty, donating a lot, making a lot for minorities, etc, because truth is, I'm afraid of getting mugged. People who criticize me, talking as if I belonged to the group of tax evaders, themselves don't have a clean business and evade taxes just as much as Greek citizen, so don't expect any rationality in their despicable criticism. Things can be so simple as, if you don't buy locally-grown groceries, you deserve to be told off in public for not helping the local population. If you belong to the Christian minority, expect to be harassed by those you say "We need to respect all religions". Everyday you'll face jokes like "priests rape kids, followers are stuck-up, donating is worse than sponsoring a mafia". President Macron himself is seen as a capitalist enemy by those 20-50%, and this Mélenchon group explicitly denies his legitimacy. There are currently very active groups and many of my friends are preparing the ground on Facebook (God knows what kind of riots they're preparing for September – you think I'm kidding? wait and watch). French people are entirely hostile to privately-owned companies and average-wealthy managers, so, no, I wouldn't recommend my country for entrepreneurs, not until they make peace with a reasonable dose of capitslism. And that's where I have hope for Macron: If he does the right things, he may tame anti-capitalism sentiments a bit and show that hard works does bring money.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
reacweb 9y ago
I am french. I do not understand why you have been moded down.
_kyran 9y ago
This is true. I've spent the past couple of months in various areas of France. I can't speak for all ages, but the youth are incredibly passionate about politics and many hold strong anti capitalism beliefs and will enthusiastically riot at the chance to have their opinions heard.
- zdkl 9y ago
  Yeah there's a lot of left leaning kids being caught in the student unions (unef & co). Those are propped up by the "real world" unions who are in turn very close to the different political parties. The thing is, those left leaning student bodies are the only ones to have credible presence in most universities due to the amount of support they garner to push their communications and frankly the incompetence of the right leaning student orgs. It's a bit of a self perpetuating cycle where the right leaning folks don't have as much support structure to coordinate because of how everyone (themselves included) see the right.
- corford 9y ago
  It's more anecdote/speculation on my part than fact but I noticed many (most?) families would vote as a block on historic lines. So, if your mother and father were left, everyone in the family would always vote left (regardless of candidate/current manifesto), likewise for right leaning families. What I love about Macron is his unashamed centerist approach. It's new in France and I hope he has ushered in a new dimension to French politics that sticks and makes it more normal for people to vote for different parties each time based on what a manifesto actually says and who's running for elected office. Macron reminds me a little of 1997 in the UK and Tony Blair. Let's hope he avoids turning in to a war criminal in a few years time... :)
gagabity 9y ago
What happens in September? I'm going on vacation over there!
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- yaantc 9y ago
  There's been a call for strikes to protest against the labor code reforms by several syndicates and far left parties (PC, Mélenchon's Insoumis). Expect the usual circus, but I don't think it'll be too bad. There were already some labor reforms under Hollande, and they went through. Now there's an even bigger majority for it. But syndicates and the far left have to go through the motions and protest on this. Get some popcorn, enjoy the show (not too close), you may see a traditional French protest while here. IIRC it should be around mid-September.
  - zdkl 9y ago
    If you really want to have some fun go poking around high school and facultés de science humaines. You'll probably get to witness "the che" flags on faculty buildings and students barricading the ways in. Why? Neither we nor them know.
  - zer0tonin 9y ago
    > Now there's an even bigger majority for it Hollande's reform clearly didn't have a majority, this one is in the same bag. Most of the people who voted for Macron did it only because of the fear of Le Pen.
- tajen 9y ago
  I wouldn't worry for your vacations. Here are two recurrent periods of strikes: - Generally, strikes start in unis and high schools in the far end of September, and, depending on the year, they may develop into fully-grown national riots in public companies (SNCF) then private companies, or if there's no political following, they die off with the October school holidays. This year I'm forecasting a lot of following, because Macron intends to take controversial decisions about employment laws during this summer. - Flight strikes are rather planned for Christmas holidays (20 Dec-3 Jan). They have internal reasons and are generally not related to the October strike season. So, your September holidays are safe ;)
cmahler7 9y ago
Every person here should watch Yuri Bezmenov's lectures on ideological subversion, you can find them on youtube. The lecture is 30 years old but everything going on today makes sense after hearing him lay things out. The division in society on race, gender, income, etc is by design to keep the plebes at each others throats.
graniter 9y ago
Two of my kids are in lycee (high school) and some of the things they teach there are surprising. I can't speak for what you experienced, but I can say that what they teach in the lycee is not too far off of what you you wrote. Yet the government wants to recruit tech talent. Hmmm. However, most French people I know are not anti-capitalist. It might be more of an issue with the younger generation.
Chris2048 9y ago
> I'm afraid of getting mugged Who would mug you?!?
vidoc 9y ago
> At least 20% of French people express capitalism-hostile opinions. In other words, 80% don't. I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make and I don't want to interpret your words as a claim that 20% is far too much. Until we get an implementation of Capitalism that proves its superiority to all other models and demonstrates its ability to regulate itself, it's probably safe to tolerate alternative points of views don't you think? If it provides moderation and balance, I'm not against it personally. That said, the de-facto, pavlovian hostility you are probably referring to is certainly annoying: and what I mean is that sometimes it is just purely out of doctrine, without a single argument intelligent or not. But hey, you have the same thing at the other end of the spectrum, on the other side of the Atlantic where for example, the words 'socialist' or 'communist' are slurs.
- tajen 9y ago
  Your reasoning about 20-80 doesn't hold. If, say, 20% people are violent and 80% aren't, does that mean you're 80% safe from violence? Of course not. It's exactly what we are talking about: Those 'commies' go well beyond oral discussions, they are materially hostile, with the ranges of consequences I explained above. This is why it's called extremism: They are not tolerant with other points of view. Anyway. You don't have to understand the problem for that problem to exist. Look at the other comments, there's enough testimonials of the same thing to attest that it exists. It's just that you belong to the group of people who deny it, downplay the problem, or attempt to show 'it's ok because others are doing worse', which doesn't help solving the problem. The point is, since there is a specific risk for managers/owners of companies, I wouldn't recommend an entrepreneur to choose France. Let France solve its hostility to capitalism first, and see if people are less hostile in 5 years.
  - vidoc 9y ago
    > Your reasoning about 20-80 doesn't hold. If, say, 20% people are violent and 80% aren't, does that mean you're 80% safe from violence? Of course not. You might want to read your initial comment one more time then, my observation was related to your statistic about anti-capitalist 'opinions', but now you seem to have switched to 'violence'. The point I am making is that debating ideas is important and having a constructive critic of capitalism is necessary, that's why I have no problem with your statistic. Unless 20% of the population is ready to take up arms to install the dictatorship of proletariat, but I am sure you know this isn't the case. > This is why it's called extremism: They are not tolerant with other points of view Unlike you, who couldn't possibly be suspect of intolerance to other view points as demonstrated by your rhetoric. > Anyway. You don't have to understand the problem for that problem to exist. Look at the other comments, there's enough testimonials of the same thing to attest that it exists. It's just that you belong to the group of people who deny it, downplay the problem, or attempt to show 'it's ok because others are doing worse', which doesn't help solving the problem. You realize I quoted one line about statistics, and commented it, don't you? In case you are curious, and since you have taken the freedom to cluster me in a group already, and seemingly know what my opinion is on your brilliant diagnostic of the problems of France: Having lived on both sides of the Atlantic, I'm fully aware that certain aspects of France, administrative or cultural, don't exactly make it the perfect place to create a business, that said, I'm not an entrepreneur myself and there are certainly a ton of other positive aspects that should not be overlooked. As for the rest of your depiction of France as the ultimate entrepreneurial hell, it's a bit too excessive to be significant.

by tajen 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

reacweb 9y ago

I am french. I do not understand why you have been moded down.

_kyran 9y ago

This is true. I've spent the past couple of months in various areas of France. I can't speak for all ages, but the youth are incredibly passionate about politics and many hold strong anti capitalism beliefs and will enthusiastically riot at the chance to have their opinions heard.

zdkl 9y ago
Yeah there's a lot of left leaning kids being caught in the student unions (unef & co). Those are propped up by the "real world" unions who are in turn very close to the different political parties. The thing is, those left leaning student bodies are the only ones to have credible presence in most universities due to the amount of support they garner to push their communications and frankly the incompetence of the right leaning student orgs. It's a bit of a self perpetuating cycle where the right leaning folks don't have as much support structure to coordinate because of how everyone (themselves included) see the right.
corford 9y ago
It's more anecdote/speculation on my part than fact but I noticed many (most?) families would vote as a block on historic lines. So, if your mother and father were left, everyone in the family would always vote left (regardless of candidate/current manifesto), likewise for right leaning families. What I love about Macron is his unashamed centerist approach. It's new in France and I hope he has ushered in a new dimension to French politics that sticks and makes it more normal for people to vote for different parties each time based on what a manifesto actually says and who's running for elected office. Macron reminds me a little of 1997 in the UK and Tony Blair. Let's hope he avoids turning in to a war criminal in a few years time... :)

gagabity 9y ago

What happens in September? I'm going on vacation over there!

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
yaantc 9y ago
There's been a call for strikes to protest against the labor code reforms by several syndicates and far left parties (PC, Mélenchon's Insoumis). Expect the usual circus, but I don't think it'll be too bad. There were already some labor reforms under Hollande, and they went through. Now there's an even bigger majority for it. But syndicates and the far left have to go through the motions and protest on this. Get some popcorn, enjoy the show (not too close), you may see a traditional French protest while here. IIRC it should be around mid-September.
- zdkl 9y ago
  If you really want to have some fun go poking around high school and facultés de science humaines. You'll probably get to witness "the che" flags on faculty buildings and students barricading the ways in. Why? Neither we nor them know.
- zer0tonin 9y ago
  > Now there's an even bigger majority for it Hollande's reform clearly didn't have a majority, this one is in the same bag. Most of the people who voted for Macron did it only because of the fear of Le Pen.
tajen 9y ago
I wouldn't worry for your vacations. Here are two recurrent periods of strikes: - Generally, strikes start in unis and high schools in the far end of September, and, depending on the year, they may develop into fully-grown national riots in public companies (SNCF) then private companies, or if there's no political following, they die off with the October school holidays. This year I'm forecasting a lot of following, because Macron intends to take controversial decisions about employment laws during this summer. - Flight strikes are rather planned for Christmas holidays (20 Dec-3 Jan). They have internal reasons and are generally not related to the October strike season. So, your September holidays are safe ;)

cmahler7 9y ago

Every person here should watch Yuri Bezmenov's lectures on ideological subversion, you can find them on youtube. The lecture is 30 years old but everything going on today makes sense after hearing him lay things out. The division in society on race, gender, income, etc is by design to keep the plebes at each others throats.

graniter 9y ago

Two of my kids are in lycee (high school) and some of the things they teach there are surprising. I can't speak for what you experienced, but I can say that what they teach in the lycee is not too far off of what you you wrote. Yet the government wants to recruit tech talent. Hmmm. However, most French people I know are not anti-capitalist. It might be more of an issue with the younger generation.

Chris2048 9y ago

> I'm afraid of getting mugged Who would mug you?!?

vidoc 9y ago

> At least 20% of French people express capitalism-hostile opinions. In other words, 80% don't. I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make and I don't want to interpret your words as a claim that 20% is far too much. Until we get an implementation of Capitalism that proves its superiority to all other models and demonstrates its ability to regulate itself, it's probably safe to tolerate alternative points of views don't you think? If it provides moderation and balance, I'm not against it personally. That said, the de-facto, pavlovian hostility you are probably referring to is certainly annoying: and what I mean is that sometimes it is just purely out of doctrine, without a single argument intelligent or not. But hey, you have the same thing at the other end of the spectrum, on the other side of the Atlantic where for example, the words 'socialist' or 'communist' are slurs.

tajen 9y ago
Your reasoning about 20-80 doesn't hold. If, say, 20% people are violent and 80% aren't, does that mean you're 80% safe from violence? Of course not. It's exactly what we are talking about: Those 'commies' go well beyond oral discussions, they are materially hostile, with the ranges of consequences I explained above. This is why it's called extremism: They are not tolerant with other points of view. Anyway. You don't have to understand the problem for that problem to exist. Look at the other comments, there's enough testimonials of the same thing to attest that it exists. It's just that you belong to the group of people who deny it, downplay the problem, or attempt to show 'it's ok because others are doing worse', which doesn't help solving the problem. The point is, since there is a specific risk for managers/owners of companies, I wouldn't recommend an entrepreneur to choose France. Let France solve its hostility to capitalism first, and see if people are less hostile in 5 years.
- vidoc 9y ago
  > Your reasoning about 20-80 doesn't hold. If, say, 20% people are violent and 80% aren't, does that mean you're 80% safe from violence? Of course not. You might want to read your initial comment one more time then, my observation was related to your statistic about anti-capitalist 'opinions', but now you seem to have switched to 'violence'. The point I am making is that debating ideas is important and having a constructive critic of capitalism is necessary, that's why I have no problem with your statistic. Unless 20% of the population is ready to take up arms to install the dictatorship of proletariat, but I am sure you know this isn't the case. > This is why it's called extremism: They are not tolerant with other points of view Unlike you, who couldn't possibly be suspect of intolerance to other view points as demonstrated by your rhetoric. > Anyway. You don't have to understand the problem for that problem to exist. Look at the other comments, there's enough testimonials of the same thing to attest that it exists. It's just that you belong to the group of people who deny it, downplay the problem, or attempt to show 'it's ok because others are doing worse', which doesn't help solving the problem. You realize I quoted one line about statistics, and commented it, don't you? In case you are curious, and since you have taken the freedom to cluster me in a group already, and seemingly know what my opinion is on your brilliant diagnostic of the problems of France: Having lived on both sides of the Atlantic, I'm fully aware that certain aspects of France, administrative or cultural, don't exactly make it the perfect place to create a business, that said, I'm not an entrepreneur myself and there are certainly a ton of other positive aspects that should not be overlooked. As for the rest of your depiction of France as the ultimate entrepreneurial hell, it's a bit too excessive to be significant.