6 ms·

> keyboard ... for most people it is the main way they interact with their machines The answer is right there: no, most people barely touch the keyboard. Most

> keyboard ... for most people it is the main way they interact with their machines The answer is right there: no, most people barely touch the keyboard. Most people are not using laptops as tools to create anything. Most people do nothing but look at Reddit/Facebook endless stream of entertainment and scroll, scroll, scroll. Apple understood this early on and they made the perfect laptop for scrolling, which is now available in Air, Pro and Regular flavors. These aren't for typing. As long as majority of laptop buyers are content consumers, this is not going to change. However... It will change. The content consumption has been shifting to mobile: the phones and tablets are taking over. Once a laptop once again becomes primarily a _tool_, decent keyboards (and maybe even tall screens!) will come back, just look at the desktops. As traditional desktops have been 100% abandoned by consumers, the mechanical keyboards and high quality IPS monitors made a smashing comeback, the power users (remaining audience) is willing to pay for nice tools.

threeseed 9y ago
Not sure what you mean about Apple. Their second generation, butterfly keyboards are amazing once you get used to it and aren't some indication that they are abandoning content creators.
- nickpeterson 9y ago
  How about their dedicated emoji bar instead of control keys?
  - threeseed 9y ago
    1. It's not a dedicated emoji bar. 2. You can set it to permanently show control keys. 3. It's optional. You can buy the model without it. 4. Some of us actually like it. I use IntelliJ every day and it's great to be able to have dedicated refactor/debug keys instead of having to remember arcane key commands.
    - JoshTriplett 9y ago
      > 2. You can set it to permanently show control keys. You can set it to permanently show images of control keys, on a flat surface. If I wanted a tablet I'd buy a tablet; keys have boundaries between them, push down and spring up, and otherwise respond to fingers in ways that a tablet doesn't.
      - snewk 9y ago
        are you so upset by point 2 that you forgot point 3? some people seem to think that apple is in the business of personally catering to their every whim. i totally get why you wouldn’t like the touch bar, but you don’t have to buy that model. in fact, you don’t have to buy a macbook at all. it’s also pretty astonishing to me how many people vehemently hate this thing they’ve never even tried to use.
        tfcata 9y ago
        There is no such an option for the 15-inch model. In fact, the 13-inch model that doesn't come with this bar is the lower-end one. If it is genuinely an 'option', every model should come with a variant without this bar.
    - nickpeterson 9y ago
      Oh, I didn't know I could get a 15" MacBook without one, nice to know.
      - abrowne 9y ago
        Even for the 13-inch, the two models aren't remotely similar outside the outer case. The one without the touchbar is really more like a MacBook Air with a 15W CPU.
        threeseed 9y ago
        Same display, same memory, same CPU class, same SSD technology, same ports, same keyboard, same WiFi/BT, same camera, same battery and battery life: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/ And for more money you can spec them identically.
  - dzhiurgis 9y ago
    Useless, but keyboard itself is amazing. It's like 10 years ago when first MacBooks came out with chiclet keys, while all other manufacturers used previous design (most of them finally shifted to chiclet by now). Typing on a regular laptop now feels like masochism.
    - FireBeyond 9y ago
      Yeah, that's entirely subjective, both myself and my girlfriend _vastly_ prefer the keyboard on my XPS 9560 versus her Macbook.
      - dzhiurgis 9y ago
        If you comparing with The Original MacBook (12") then yeah, that keyboard sucks.
    - MagnumOpus 9y ago
      Chiclet is cheap. That is literally the only reason other manufacturers followed. As to your strange preferences, I cannot understand them. Buckling spring keyboards are far more tactile and I resent that I cannot get them on "premium" products any more.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    It's awesome. It finally makes keyboard shortcuts discoverable.
  - zitterbewegung 9y ago
    You mean the one that has a secure enclave for your fingerprint login? I probably will miss the function keys though, maybe they should make a non touchbar Mac with a touchid power button.
    - NTripleOne 9y ago
      >a non touchbar Mac with a touchid power button. That would make too much sense, Apple haven't done sense for a while now - people have called Apple form over function for a long time except now it's actually true, at least WRT their laptops.
- slantyyz 9y ago
  >> butterfly keyboards are amazing once you get used to it Curious - what makes them so "amazing"? Speaking only for myself-- going back to the 80s, there has only ever been one keyboard that I've ever used that I couldn't get used to (Surface Pro Touch keyboard). For all the others, once I got used to them, I never really felt like one was better than another, just different.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    I don't know about the Apple ones, but I've definitely got keyboards of different qualities. Right now, I'm on a Lenovo that was built for classroom use. They keys have a nice travel distance, and a bit of click then they trigger. It makes it comfortable to type on. I've also got an HP Envy. The keypresses are shallower, the first tactile indication that you've triggered the key is when it hits bottom, and the edges of the keys aren't rounded as nicely. I know that one hurts my fingers after typing for a few hours, and the other one is pretty comfortable after that same time.
nnfy 9y ago
.Most people do nothing but look at Reddit/Facebook endless stream of entertainment and scroll, scroll, scroll. Don't forget porn!
- Redoubts 9y ago
  And yet trackpads were mostly terrible for so long.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    They've gotten worse; the physical buttons disappeared. One step closer to useless. No tactile difference between left, right, and center. The drivers are crap; palm detection is spotty, allowing mouseclicks when they shouldn't be allowed, but also often preventing the mouse from being used at the same time as the keyboard. It's a joy to mindlessly surf the web, but a pain in the ass to do most other things.
catdog 9y ago
> As long as majority of laptop buyers are content consumers, this is not going to change. However... That would be understandable for the consumer focused lineups but most manufactures also produce business models which are bought to create something and still suffer from the same problem. As can be seen in the example of the Thinkpad keyboards were already better but somehow they decided to worsen them. > the power users (remaining audience) is willing to pay for nice tools. As said there already is this business/consumer split and it has been for many years. Business is where the money is made, not at the consumer front where it can't be cheap enough, yet the devices inside this category weirdly are more and more designed not to be the workhorses they are supposed to be.
- honr 9y ago
  I believe that is only in passing. I honestly think the majority of laptop manufacturers are not visionaries when it comes to product specs. Only Apple and a couple of niche ones truly seem to know what they are doing. The rest will have a delay to see the change in trends (but they do eventually see it). I think consumer masses moving away from the laptop market has a dire implications for this market (far less competition, expect premium prices). But on the plus side it should shift the market towards productivity, which is a big plus for some of us.
- ako 9y ago
  Most people I know attach external display, mouse and keyboard to their laptops when they use it for programming, or writing large texts. The quality of the laptop keyboard itself it not really relevant. And you never be able to put a real good ergonomic split keyboard in a laptop anyway...
- Hydraulix989 9y ago
  This is why I installed a classic non-chiclet Lenovo Thinkpad keyboard into my X230 laptop: https://twitter.com/chuckmoyes/status/868582082896830464 https://twitter.com/chuckmoyes/status/868582082896830464 It's such a shame to see them go downhill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY
- Qub3d 9y ago
fuwafuwa 9y ago
It's already arriving. Look at the Chromebooks for education. They're thicker, ruggedized. A fair number have more durable keyboards. The battery life is excellent. These are machines for doing assignments - serious work. Likewise a lot of convertibles are sporting a stylus again to pick up the digital art market. And "Mobile Workstation" has become a sizable laptop segment independent of "gaming laptop". The shift is visible, although it'll be some time before the hardware/software packages are polished enough to satisfy pros with an established workflow.
gutnor 9y ago
> Most people are not using laptops as tools to create anything. Even for people creating stuff. The touchpad is way more important than the keyboard as a developer. I can spend a lot of time scrolling, scrolling, reading code and documentation and stuff. Ok there is a lot of shortcuts involved, but keyboard quality needs to be real bad before it becomes a show stopper. Sure there are days were I code all day. But even there, the IDE is doing a lot of the work too. In a language like java, you never have to type a method, class or variable name beyond the first time you defined them. And the IDE will even suggest good enough variable names. Now that I'm thinking off, this is probably the longest sequence of word that I have written unassisted for the day. Commenting on HN, or documentation, or email is what a good keyboard is useful for.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- khedoros1 9y ago
  If I'm developing, there can be hours between times that I use the mouse. I don't consider it remotely a priority. The quality of the keyboard in most laptops is already "real bad", and has been for a long time, IMO.
pmontra 9y ago
Consumer oriented laptops have touch screens. They are more efficient at controlling on screen stuff than touchpad. I'd like a touchscreen for my next laptop too.
flukus 9y ago
So how do you explain the prevalence of keyboard add-ons for tablets? It seems there are quite a few people out there who not only need keyboards but they even try and make them work with devices built to be entirely touch centric.
Yizahi 9y ago
Mechanical is not really an improvement if the shape and layout is 40 year old.

threeseed 9y ago

Not sure what you mean about Apple. Their second generation, butterfly keyboards are amazing once you get used to it and aren't some indication that they are abandoning content creators.

nickpeterson 9y ago
How about their dedicated emoji bar instead of control keys?
- threeseed 9y ago
  1. It's not a dedicated emoji bar. 2. You can set it to permanently show control keys. 3. It's optional. You can buy the model without it. 4. Some of us actually like it. I use IntelliJ every day and it's great to be able to have dedicated refactor/debug keys instead of having to remember arcane key commands.
  - JoshTriplett 9y ago
    > 2. You can set it to permanently show control keys. You can set it to permanently show images of control keys, on a flat surface. If I wanted a tablet I'd buy a tablet; keys have boundaries between them, push down and spring up, and otherwise respond to fingers in ways that a tablet doesn't.
    - snewk 9y ago
      are you so upset by point 2 that you forgot point 3? some people seem to think that apple is in the business of personally catering to their every whim. i totally get why you wouldn’t like the touch bar, but you don’t have to buy that model. in fact, you don’t have to buy a macbook at all. it’s also pretty astonishing to me how many people vehemently hate this thing they’ve never even tried to use.
      - tfcata 9y ago
        There is no such an option for the 15-inch model. In fact, the 13-inch model that doesn't come with this bar is the lower-end one. If it is genuinely an 'option', every model should come with a variant without this bar.
  - nickpeterson 9y ago
    Oh, I didn't know I could get a 15" MacBook without one, nice to know.
    - abrowne 9y ago
      Even for the 13-inch, the two models aren't remotely similar outside the outer case. The one without the touchbar is really more like a MacBook Air with a 15W CPU.
      - threeseed 9y ago
        Same display, same memory, same CPU class, same SSD technology, same ports, same keyboard, same WiFi/BT, same camera, same battery and battery life: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/ And for more money you can spec them identically.
- dzhiurgis 9y ago
  Useless, but keyboard itself is amazing. It's like 10 years ago when first MacBooks came out with chiclet keys, while all other manufacturers used previous design (most of them finally shifted to chiclet by now). Typing on a regular laptop now feels like masochism.
  - FireBeyond 9y ago
    Yeah, that's entirely subjective, both myself and my girlfriend _vastly_ prefer the keyboard on my XPS 9560 versus her Macbook.
    - dzhiurgis 9y ago
      If you comparing with The Original MacBook (12") then yeah, that keyboard sucks.
  - MagnumOpus 9y ago
    Chiclet is cheap. That is literally the only reason other manufacturers followed. As to your strange preferences, I cannot understand them. Buckling spring keyboards are far more tactile and I resent that I cannot get them on "premium" products any more.
- matt4077 9y ago
  It's awesome. It finally makes keyboard shortcuts discoverable.
- zitterbewegung 9y ago
  You mean the one that has a secure enclave for your fingerprint login? I probably will miss the function keys though, maybe they should make a non touchbar Mac with a touchid power button.
  - NTripleOne 9y ago
    >a non touchbar Mac with a touchid power button. That would make too much sense, Apple haven't done sense for a while now - people have called Apple form over function for a long time except now it's actually true, at least WRT their laptops.
slantyyz 9y ago
>> butterfly keyboards are amazing once you get used to it Curious - what makes them so "amazing"? Speaking only for myself-- going back to the 80s, there has only ever been one keyboard that I've ever used that I couldn't get used to (Surface Pro Touch keyboard). For all the others, once I got used to them, I never really felt like one was better than another, just different.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  I don't know about the Apple ones, but I've definitely got keyboards of different qualities. Right now, I'm on a Lenovo that was built for classroom use. They keys have a nice travel distance, and a bit of click then they trigger. It makes it comfortable to type on. I've also got an HP Envy. The keypresses are shallower, the first tactile indication that you've triggered the key is when it hits bottom, and the edges of the keys aren't rounded as nicely. I know that one hurts my fingers after typing for a few hours, and the other one is pretty comfortable after that same time.

nnfy 9y ago

.Most people do nothing but look at Reddit/Facebook endless stream of entertainment and scroll, scroll, scroll. Don't forget porn!

Redoubts 9y ago
And yet trackpads were mostly terrible for so long.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  They've gotten worse; the physical buttons disappeared. One step closer to useless. No tactile difference between left, right, and center. The drivers are crap; palm detection is spotty, allowing mouseclicks when they shouldn't be allowed, but also often preventing the mouse from being used at the same time as the keyboard. It's a joy to mindlessly surf the web, but a pain in the ass to do most other things.

catdog 9y ago

> As long as majority of laptop buyers are content consumers, this is not going to change. However... That would be understandable for the consumer focused lineups but most manufactures also produce business models which are bought to create something and still suffer from the same problem. As can be seen in the example of the Thinkpad keyboards were already better but somehow they decided to worsen them. > the power users (remaining audience) is willing to pay for nice tools. As said there already is this business/consumer split and it has been for many years. Business is where the money is made, not at the consumer front where it can't be cheap enough, yet the devices inside this category weirdly are more and more designed not to be the workhorses they are supposed to be.

honr 9y ago
I believe that is only in passing. I honestly think the majority of laptop manufacturers are not visionaries when it comes to product specs. Only Apple and a couple of niche ones truly seem to know what they are doing. The rest will have a delay to see the change in trends (but they do eventually see it). I think consumer masses moving away from the laptop market has a dire implications for this market (far less competition, expect premium prices). But on the plus side it should shift the market towards productivity, which is a big plus for some of us.
ako 9y ago
Most people I know attach external display, mouse and keyboard to their laptops when they use it for programming, or writing large texts. The quality of the laptop keyboard itself it not really relevant. And you never be able to put a real good ergonomic split keyboard in a laptop anyway...
Hydraulix989 9y ago
This is why I installed a classic non-chiclet Lenovo Thinkpad keyboard into my X230 laptop: https://twitter.com/chuckmoyes/status/868582082896830464 https://twitter.com/chuckmoyes/status/868582082896830464 It's such a shame to see them go downhill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY
Qub3d 9y ago

fuwafuwa 9y ago

It's already arriving. Look at the Chromebooks for education. They're thicker, ruggedized. A fair number have more durable keyboards. The battery life is excellent. These are machines for doing assignments - serious work. Likewise a lot of convertibles are sporting a stylus again to pick up the digital art market. And "Mobile Workstation" has become a sizable laptop segment independent of "gaming laptop". The shift is visible, although it'll be some time before the hardware/software packages are polished enough to satisfy pros with an established workflow.

gutnor 9y ago

> Most people are not using laptops as tools to create anything. Even for people creating stuff. The touchpad is way more important than the keyboard as a developer. I can spend a lot of time scrolling, scrolling, reading code and documentation and stuff. Ok there is a lot of shortcuts involved, but keyboard quality needs to be real bad before it becomes a show stopper. Sure there are days were I code all day. But even there, the IDE is doing a lot of the work too. In a language like java, you never have to type a method, class or variable name beyond the first time you defined them. And the IDE will even suggest good enough variable names. Now that I'm thinking off, this is probably the longest sequence of word that I have written unassisted for the day. Commenting on HN, or documentation, or email is what a good keyboard is useful for.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
khedoros1 9y ago
If I'm developing, there can be hours between times that I use the mouse. I don't consider it remotely a priority. The quality of the keyboard in most laptops is already "real bad", and has been for a long time, IMO.

pmontra 9y ago

Consumer oriented laptops have touch screens. They are more efficient at controlling on screen stuff than touchpad. I'd like a touchscreen for my next laptop too.

flukus 9y ago

So how do you explain the prevalence of keyboard add-ons for tablets? It seems there are quite a few people out there who not only need keyboards but they even try and make them work with devices built to be entirely touch centric.

Yizahi 9y ago

Mechanical is not really an improvement if the shape and layout is 40 year old.