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There are not many shows taht are better than the Wire; my favorite part about Omar is that he doesn't curse. In a profane and violent world, he has a code, wh

There are not many shows taht are better than the Wire; my favorite part about Omar is that he doesn't curse. In a profane and violent world, he has a code, which he upholds. IIRC, MKWilliams was the one who insisted that Omar not curse.

ttoinou 9y ago
There are not many shows taht are better than the Wire Oz ?
- spenuke 9y ago
  Not even close. The only contender is Deadwood (RIP).
  - tomjakubowski 9y ago
    Surely The Sopranos is a contender as well. In my mind those three occupy a tier above all other television dramas.
    - _asummers 9y ago
      Sopranos is in the tier JUST immediately below The Wire and Breaking Bad, for me. Amazing TV, but not quite at that extra-elite level. I have not yet watched Deadwood, and judging from these discussions, I should.
  - yannickt 9y ago
    I would count both The Sopranos and Breaking Bad as contenders, personally.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - jancsika 9y ago
      I think the Wire excelled at a more difficult game because the writing adhered to a kind of journalistic dogma that didn't allow for many of the tricks used in the storytelling of Breaking Bad or The Sopranos. Walt could blow up a room and not only survive, but convince a psychopathic drug dealer to do business with him by that very act. Tony Soprano could garner empathy and understanding by showing us his dream sequences. But The Wire gave its audience only what its characters said and did. Characters who-- by and large-- couldn't just "problem solve" their way out of their circumstances like Walt did so often.
      - DanBC 9y ago
        McNulty planting evidence in the Journalism season was such bullshit though.
        balls187 9y ago
        How so? Season 5 is the most underappreciated season, but I've really started to appreciate it. McNulty has been a character who believes the ends justify the means. In Season 1, he falsifies that Sidner (iirc) was on the roof, thus allowing the police to admit phone tapped evidence. In Season 5, it shows how taking that mentality of by any means necessary can quickly spiral out of control.
  - ttoinou 9y ago
    I stopped watching Deadwood in the middle of season 2 because the acting was so bad it didn't felt real (but I liked it apart from that) Oz is still one of my favorite tv show, it has so many good characters and the huit clos format (closed doors) is really perfect for focusing on them
  - lz400 9y ago
    I think nobody really touches David Simon in TV. He's like Miyazaki in anime I feel. First it's him, then everybody else. The Wire, Treme, Generation Kill... it's just another level. On the next step below we'd have things like Man Men, Deadwood, The Sopranos, etc.
  - balls187 9y ago
    I enjoyed deadwood, and I thought the story arc with The Comstock and George Hearst as a robber baron was going to have a huge payoff, but instead the series was cut short which is a huge shame. There is just enough foolery to make it easily tier 2 for me: Francis Wolcott's story arc, Olyphant's acting, Seth Bullock's attempt at morale highground. If folks aren't turned off by violence, profanity, and prostitution, it's definitely must watch tv.
- cholantesh 9y ago
  Oz is terrible; so hammy and unrealistic. J.K. Simmons is about its only saving grace.
  - badpenny 9y ago
    > so hammy and unrealistic That's what I liked about it.
- balls187 9y ago
  I've come around to the thinking that Sopranos (even if I prefer the Wire) was the best show on television. Before it, nothing on television came close to the depth that the Sopranos did. It laid the foundation for epic shows like The Wire, Game of Thrones, and Breaking Bad.
  - tootie 9y ago
    Maybe I'm nuts, but I couldn't stand The Sopranos. I didn't find Tony Soprano to be a sympathetic antihero at all. Just a vile gangster who I just wanted to be killed in every episode.
    - Larrikin 9y ago
      I felt the same. I watched it all the way through and understand that it laid the groundwork so a better show like The Wire could be produced. But I agree with you. I hated Tony and basically everyone he associated with and was glad to see some of them killed off. I guess that means it was well written but its the reason I haven't bothered to rewatch. The Wire on the other hand I've seen completely atleast 5 times and always notice something new.
    - badpenny 9y ago
      Maybe you're not supposed to find him sympathetic. Maybe you're not even supposed to find him unsympathetic. Maybe that's one of the things that differentiates good shows from great shows.
    - balls187 9y ago
      > Just a vile gangster who I just wanted to be killed in every episode. Yes! Seeing the family struggles of a vile gangster is what made the show amazing.
  - unclebucknasty 9y ago
    Overall, The Sopranos stands near the top in my book, but it did suffer from some unevenness. There seemed to be experimentation with directors that didn't always work (an Imperioli episode comes immediately to mind). And, there were some episodes and arcs that didn't have the same weight overall. Still top-tier, and I think it laid a foundation that others have built upon, in sheer game-elevation alone.
- nulldev 9y ago
  I'm an Oz fanboy and this is as close to objectively wrong as any subjective value judgment can get. Even the best of Oz is barely as good as the worst of the Wire - and Oz just got progressively worse as the seasons went on.
thinkfurther 9y ago
For me it's like a very long, very good movie :) David Simon called it "a treatise on the end of the American empire, and who we are as a people, what we've come to, why we can no longer solve or even seriously address our own problems", and generally said and wrote a lot of insightful things since, very eloquently. I loved The Wire, but discovering that head and character behind it impressed me on top of even that. Just take this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL6Jv2Jpnpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL6Jv2Jpnpg If I had to put it in a nutshell I'd say The Wire "comes from a place of" paying attention, not from distraction or deriving entertainment from crime and other problems, and that (combined with genius and the right people getting together and having good chemistry, and a lot of things not going wrong that can easily kill a TV show) made it so good. Good art can be luck, but art this great is always the tip of an iceberg.
- unclebucknasty 9y ago
  Interesting. I hadn't heard that quote from Simon, but it absolutely fits. One of the brilliant things about the show is how it wove in so many elements: rival criminals, politics, law enforcement, the media, the church, well-meaning citizens, etc. There was so much tension, angst and striving from all quarters. All of this created a separate entity--a system--wherein all actions and motivations served to form a near-perfect tension that held everything and everyone in a state of suspension.
jack_kc 9y ago
What do you mean by "doesn't curse?" IIRC one of his first lines in the series is "this is some raggedy ass shit..."
- AimHere 9y ago
  There's a couple of exceptions, but in general, Omar is far less inclined to use swearwords than other characters and even expresses a dislike for that language.
- balls187 9y ago
  You're right. He does curse 2x in the show.
rsync 9y ago
"There are not many shows taht are better than the Wire; my favorite part about Omar is that he doesn't curse." I loved the wire - truly. However, I think I would rate the first season of true detective as being better than all of the seasons of the wire except for season 2, which was my favorite. I was surprised to learn that s2 (dock workers, etc.) is not very well liked - I thought it was by far the most interesting. EDIT: WIRE SPOILER: also, as long as we're talking about it ... the resolution of the omar character in the last seasons of the wire was incredibly anti-climactic and just downright weird. I understand they got the rug pulled out and had to quick wrap up the show but that was really just the worst and most useless bookend to his character arc...
- civilitty 9y ago
  > EDIT: WIRE SPOILER: also, as long as we're talking about it ... the resolution of the omar character in the last seasons of the wire was incredibly anti-climactic and just downright weird. I understand they got the rug pulled out and had to quick wrap up the show but that was really just the worst and most useless bookend to his character arc... I think that was the point. I don't remember where I read it, but his death was always going to be like that. It didn't matter that he was the only beacon of (kinda) good in a cruel world - good and bad, the streets get you eventually and its never honorable or glorious.
  - BurningFrog 9y ago
    Yeah, I would have expected - and enjoyed - a blaze of glory end for Omar. Which in itself is an argument against doing that! The way he went out says that in the real "game", there are no super heroes. Even the biggest badass dies just as much from a bullet, and ultimately mean nothing compared to the big institutional forces that shape the world. One way to think about The Wire as a whole is that it's about organisations and how they remain the same, regardless of the seemingly big influence individuals have in them. At the end of the show most the bigger-than-life people on all sides have been replaced. Yet everything is just the same as it always was.
    - 9y ago

ttoinou 9y ago

There are not many shows taht are better than the Wire Oz ?

spenuke 9y ago
Not even close. The only contender is Deadwood (RIP).
- tomjakubowski 9y ago
  Surely The Sopranos is a contender as well. In my mind those three occupy a tier above all other television dramas.
  - _asummers 9y ago
    Sopranos is in the tier JUST immediately below The Wire and Breaking Bad, for me. Amazing TV, but not quite at that extra-elite level. I have not yet watched Deadwood, and judging from these discussions, I should.
- yannickt 9y ago
  I would count both The Sopranos and Breaking Bad as contenders, personally.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - jancsika 9y ago
    I think the Wire excelled at a more difficult game because the writing adhered to a kind of journalistic dogma that didn't allow for many of the tricks used in the storytelling of Breaking Bad or The Sopranos. Walt could blow up a room and not only survive, but convince a psychopathic drug dealer to do business with him by that very act. Tony Soprano could garner empathy and understanding by showing us his dream sequences. But The Wire gave its audience only what its characters said and did. Characters who-- by and large-- couldn't just "problem solve" their way out of their circumstances like Walt did so often.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      McNulty planting evidence in the Journalism season was such bullshit though.
      - balls187 9y ago
        How so? Season 5 is the most underappreciated season, but I've really started to appreciate it. McNulty has been a character who believes the ends justify the means. In Season 1, he falsifies that Sidner (iirc) was on the roof, thus allowing the police to admit phone tapped evidence. In Season 5, it shows how taking that mentality of by any means necessary can quickly spiral out of control.
- ttoinou 9y ago
  I stopped watching Deadwood in the middle of season 2 because the acting was so bad it didn't felt real (but I liked it apart from that) Oz is still one of my favorite tv show, it has so many good characters and the huit clos format (closed doors) is really perfect for focusing on them
- lz400 9y ago
  I think nobody really touches David Simon in TV. He's like Miyazaki in anime I feel. First it's him, then everybody else. The Wire, Treme, Generation Kill... it's just another level. On the next step below we'd have things like Man Men, Deadwood, The Sopranos, etc.
- balls187 9y ago
  I enjoyed deadwood, and I thought the story arc with The Comstock and George Hearst as a robber baron was going to have a huge payoff, but instead the series was cut short which is a huge shame. There is just enough foolery to make it easily tier 2 for me: Francis Wolcott's story arc, Olyphant's acting, Seth Bullock's attempt at morale highground. If folks aren't turned off by violence, profanity, and prostitution, it's definitely must watch tv.
cholantesh 9y ago
Oz is terrible; so hammy and unrealistic. J.K. Simmons is about its only saving grace.
- badpenny 9y ago
  > so hammy and unrealistic That's what I liked about it.
balls187 9y ago
I've come around to the thinking that Sopranos (even if I prefer the Wire) was the best show on television. Before it, nothing on television came close to the depth that the Sopranos did. It laid the foundation for epic shows like The Wire, Game of Thrones, and Breaking Bad.
- tootie 9y ago
  Maybe I'm nuts, but I couldn't stand The Sopranos. I didn't find Tony Soprano to be a sympathetic antihero at all. Just a vile gangster who I just wanted to be killed in every episode.
  - Larrikin 9y ago
    I felt the same. I watched it all the way through and understand that it laid the groundwork so a better show like The Wire could be produced. But I agree with you. I hated Tony and basically everyone he associated with and was glad to see some of them killed off. I guess that means it was well written but its the reason I haven't bothered to rewatch. The Wire on the other hand I've seen completely atleast 5 times and always notice something new.
  - badpenny 9y ago
    Maybe you're not supposed to find him sympathetic. Maybe you're not even supposed to find him unsympathetic. Maybe that's one of the things that differentiates good shows from great shows.
  - balls187 9y ago
    > Just a vile gangster who I just wanted to be killed in every episode. Yes! Seeing the family struggles of a vile gangster is what made the show amazing.
- unclebucknasty 9y ago
  Overall, The Sopranos stands near the top in my book, but it did suffer from some unevenness. There seemed to be experimentation with directors that didn't always work (an Imperioli episode comes immediately to mind). And, there were some episodes and arcs that didn't have the same weight overall. Still top-tier, and I think it laid a foundation that others have built upon, in sheer game-elevation alone.
nulldev 9y ago
I'm an Oz fanboy and this is as close to objectively wrong as any subjective value judgment can get. Even the best of Oz is barely as good as the worst of the Wire - and Oz just got progressively worse as the seasons went on.

thinkfurther 9y ago

For me it's like a very long, very good movie :) David Simon called it "a treatise on the end of the American empire, and who we are as a people, what we've come to, why we can no longer solve or even seriously address our own problems", and generally said and wrote a lot of insightful things since, very eloquently. I loved The Wire, but discovering that head and character behind it impressed me on top of even that. Just take this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL6Jv2Jpnpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL6Jv2Jpnpg If I had to put it in a nutshell I'd say The Wire "comes from a place of" paying attention, not from distraction or deriving entertainment from crime and other problems, and that (combined with genius and the right people getting together and having good chemistry, and a lot of things not going wrong that can easily kill a TV show) made it so good. Good art can be luck, but art this great is always the tip of an iceberg.

unclebucknasty 9y ago
Interesting. I hadn't heard that quote from Simon, but it absolutely fits. One of the brilliant things about the show is how it wove in so many elements: rival criminals, politics, law enforcement, the media, the church, well-meaning citizens, etc. There was so much tension, angst and striving from all quarters. All of this created a separate entity--a system--wherein all actions and motivations served to form a near-perfect tension that held everything and everyone in a state of suspension.

jack_kc 9y ago

What do you mean by "doesn't curse?" IIRC one of his first lines in the series is "this is some raggedy ass shit..."

AimHere 9y ago
There's a couple of exceptions, but in general, Omar is far less inclined to use swearwords than other characters and even expresses a dislike for that language.
balls187 9y ago
You're right. He does curse 2x in the show.

rsync 9y ago

"There are not many shows taht are better than the Wire; my favorite part about Omar is that he doesn't curse." I loved the wire - truly. However, I think I would rate the first season of true detective as being better than all of the seasons of the wire except for season 2, which was my favorite. I was surprised to learn that s2 (dock workers, etc.) is not very well liked - I thought it was by far the most interesting. EDIT: WIRE SPOILER: also, as long as we're talking about it ... the resolution of the omar character in the last seasons of the wire was incredibly anti-climactic and just downright weird. I understand they got the rug pulled out and had to quick wrap up the show but that was really just the worst and most useless bookend to his character arc...

civilitty 9y ago
> EDIT: WIRE SPOILER: also, as long as we're talking about it ... the resolution of the omar character in the last seasons of the wire was incredibly anti-climactic and just downright weird. I understand they got the rug pulled out and had to quick wrap up the show but that was really just the worst and most useless bookend to his character arc... I think that was the point. I don't remember where I read it, but his death was always going to be like that. It didn't matter that he was the only beacon of (kinda) good in a cruel world - good and bad, the streets get you eventually and its never honorable or glorious.
- BurningFrog 9y ago
  Yeah, I would have expected - and enjoyed - a blaze of glory end for Omar. Which in itself is an argument against doing that! The way he went out says that in the real "game", there are no super heroes. Even the biggest badass dies just as much from a bullet, and ultimately mean nothing compared to the big institutional forces that shape the world. One way to think about The Wire as a whole is that it's about organisations and how they remain the same, regardless of the seemingly big influence individuals have in them. At the end of the show most the bigger-than-life people on all sides have been replaced. Yet everything is just the same as it always was.
  - 9y ago