4 ms·

15 years of The Wire. Nothing has changed. Goes perfectly with the ethos of the show, at the end, nothing changes.

by nafizh 9y ago

bmelton 9y ago
Enamored with David Simon's work, I picked up the DVD box set of "Homicide: Life on the Street", which I'd heard of before, but didn't have an attachment to. After seeing The Wire, then Treme (which took me a long time to adjust to not being The Wire, but may actually be even better) and then Show Me A Hero, it's fair to say that Davis Simon is just a brilliant writer. Anyway, that was kind of a tangent to get to the real point, which is that Homicide, filmed a decade earlier than the Wire, highlighted many of the same troubles that The Wire did. Perhaps as the result of being based on the same (or similar) works, but if Homicide was authentic (and I believe it was) and the Wire was authentic (which I also believe), then it seems that Baltimore's had problems for some time. I work in Baltimore now, and get to see some of the areas The Wire was filmed in enough to see that they've made real progress in certain areas, but on the whole, but Baltimore tends to do a good job of holding a spot in the top 10 of "most dangerous cities" lists year to year.
- krrrh 9y ago
  > it's fair to say that Davis Simon is just a brilliant writer. Don't forget to check out Generation Kill, which was co-written with Ed Burns with whom he also worked on The Wire and The Corner.
  - bmelton 9y ago
    I've seen Generation Kill multiple times, and regard it as exceptional, though I wasn't aware of Simon's involvement.
    - mercer 9y ago
      Simon is all over that. i knew before I watched it, and while it's nothing like The Wire, it feels similarly honest. The best criticism of the show I've found (and I really look for that type of stuff) mostly seems to be relatively benign. If someone can direct me to more substantial disagreement, I'd love to know. But so far I've been a little surprised at how little has been written against the depiction of Generation Killl.
- moomin 9y ago
  One of the sadly brilliant things with The Wire was that it had so many great black actors given great roles. It contributes to a stellar ensemble (which also includes a white Old Etonian). Seems like a lot of shows don't offer those opportunities, and the few great black roles that do exist these days are often given to... actors from The Wire. The UK is even worse, David Harewood is on the record as saying left and went to America to find better roles.
  - toyg 9y ago
    To be fair, the racial composition of the UK, as multicultural as it might be in certain areas, is nowhere near the US' - it's almost 90% white, and before the 1950s it was dramatically more so. Even today, the largest minorities are Asian, not African. This composition is inevitably reflected in the stories people choose to write, read, film and watch.
    - moomin 9y ago
      There's truth in that, although I'd say the composition is still wrong. Famously, Midsomer Murders is way less diverse that the average Cambridgeshire village (which no-one would describe as a melting-pot). Equally, there really aren't that many decent Asian roles either (there have been some successful comedies, some good, some bad). And London... well, this isn't really about race but London rarely looks like London. As an aside, the PC Peter Grant series (aka Rivers of London) depicts London way more accurately than most fiction, despite teeming with elves and goblins.
- tnecniv 9y ago
  How does Homicide compare to The Wire?
  - bmelton 9y ago
    So, it's a decade earlier, which means that the cinematography is a decade behind. The camera work is often sloppy, and the soundtrack is, at times, atrocious. That said, the stories are just as compelling, and just as well told. If not for the faults I reference above, I'd strongly recommend it as epically great television -- and it is, if you can look past those faults, but sometimes they're pretty glaring. Andre Braugher though? He's pretty amazing throughout the series.
    - tclancy 9y ago
      The camerawork isn't sloppy, it's intentional. It may feel very dated, but at the time it was something new and interesting.
      - bmelton 9y ago
        I know that hand-held was an intentional choice, as was 16mm, but even for what it is, it still seems sloppy in spots. There are a number of sloppy pans back and forth during conversations, and because they eschewed camera trucks / sleds / dollies / etc., there are walking backwards shots in which you can tell the cameraman is walking backwards by the camera bob. That said, I'm not privy to the production details, so if even those things were intentional, then so be it, but it definitely feels dated and off, relative to The Wire.
      - DanBC 9y ago
        A lot of shows were doing jerkycam in the 1990s - NYPD Blue probably being the most hyped at the time.
- tclancy 9y ago
  I would definitely recommend his original book, "Homicide". I read it as a kid and it was eye-opening to see how even someone as open-minded/ hopeful(?) as Simon got ground down by the cycle of poverty.
- michaelchisari 9y ago
  I've been telling everyone who will listen about "Show Me A Hero".
- long 9y ago
  I tried getting into Treme but couldn't hack it. Maybe I'll give it another try, though -- what was the appeal of it for you?
  - emmanuel_1234 9y ago
    As a fan of The Wire, to me it was the music, mostly.
  - bmelton 9y ago
    It took me a long time to switch gears. Going from The Wire to Treme is kind of like switching from Windows to Linux -- the hardest part is unlearning what you already know. In my case, I kept expecting Treme to be more Wire-esque. It isn't, at all. It's its own show, with its own characters, in its own city. What it has in common with The Wire is that its characters are richly crafted, and they're whole characters. Nobody in any David Simon show is a throwaway character, and that might not ever have been more true than in Treme. Also, the acting is exceptional, in every scene, and in every case. Another commonality is that of the failures of people, and of the institutions that ostensibly aim to protect them. Like The Wire, Treme is filled with a panoply of people all attempting their best in every task, but as in life, those people sometimes fail, and often those failures come at the expense of somebody else. Just as in The Wire, we often get to see the impact of those failures up close and personal, and we get to feel the hurt it causes, while sympathizing with those who made whatever mistake caused the failure, and far too often to be comfortable, we get to pick which one of those people we prefer. There are big differences, obviously. The Wire is, at its core, a cops and robbers drama, with some other stuff going on. Treme focuses more on the people, and less on the game they're playing. Music plays a much bigger role in Treme than in The Wire, but that's a commonality too, as David Simon works tend to feature the city as a character, and Treme's set in New Orleans, and that music is part of New Orleans' character. The narrative in Treme meanders around A LOT. It all basically wraps itself up by the end, but while The Wire managed to tell a basically cohesive story each season, Treme's big plot is spread out, with blurrier lines. It gives you the feeling of closure with each season finale, but the collection of tales being told don't, and really, keep going well after the show's end. At the end of the day though, the main difference is that narrative draw. If you need one, maybe Treme isn't for you. Sure, it has political corruption, and criminal investigations, and the occasional legal proceeding, but at its core Treme is really just a window into the lives of a couple dozen folks making their way in post-Katrina New Orleans. We get to see how the storm affected them, and how the city affected them, and sometimes, how they've affected the city -- whether by making their mark on it, or succumbing to its ways, or in some cases, getting out while the getting is good. It isn't about anything that I could wrap up into a few sentences, but it's a deep cultural exploration into a culturally rich and beautiful people, and it's a showcase for some of the best damn music around, and it's an expose into the triumphs and troubles of people just trying to make it work in a city at a time when nothing's working as it should. It's also the inverse of that, in true David Simon form, so -- yeah, nobody can fault you for having a hard time making an adjustment, but it's worth adjusting if you can manage it.

15 years of The Wire. Nothing has changed. Goes perfectly with the ethos of the show, at the end, nothing changes.

by nafizh 9y ago

15 years of The Wire. Nothing has changed. Goes perfectly with the ethos of the show, at the end, nothing changes.

Enamored with David Simon's work, I picked up the DVD box set of "Homicide: Life on the Street", which I'd heard of before, but didn't have an attachment to. After seeing The Wire, then Treme (which took me a long time to adjust to not being The Wire, but may actually be even better) and then Show Me A Hero, it's fair to say that Davis Simon is just a brilliant writer. Anyway, that was kind of a tangent to get to the real point, which is that Homicide, filmed a decade earlier than the Wire, highlighted many of the same troubles that The Wire did. Perhaps as the result of being based on the same (or similar) works, but if Homicide was authentic (and I believe it was) and the Wire was authentic (which I also believe), then it seems that Baltimore's had problems for some time. I work in Baltimore now, and get to see some of the areas The Wire was filmed in enough to see that they've made real progress in certain areas, but on the whole, but Baltimore tends to do a good job of holding a spot in the top 10 of "most dangerous cities" lists year to year.

krrrh 9y ago
> it's fair to say that Davis Simon is just a brilliant writer. Don't forget to check out Generation Kill, which was co-written with Ed Burns with whom he also worked on The Wire and The Corner.
- bmelton 9y ago
  I've seen Generation Kill multiple times, and regard it as exceptional, though I wasn't aware of Simon's involvement.
  - mercer 9y ago
    Simon is all over that. i knew before I watched it, and while it's nothing like The Wire, it feels similarly honest. The best criticism of the show I've found (and I really look for that type of stuff) mostly seems to be relatively benign. If someone can direct me to more substantial disagreement, I'd love to know. But so far I've been a little surprised at how little has been written against the depiction of Generation Killl.
moomin 9y ago
One of the sadly brilliant things with The Wire was that it had so many great black actors given great roles. It contributes to a stellar ensemble (which also includes a white Old Etonian). Seems like a lot of shows don't offer those opportunities, and the few great black roles that do exist these days are often given to... actors from The Wire. The UK is even worse, David Harewood is on the record as saying left and went to America to find better roles.
- toyg 9y ago
  To be fair, the racial composition of the UK, as multicultural as it might be in certain areas, is nowhere near the US' - it's almost 90% white, and before the 1950s it was dramatically more so. Even today, the largest minorities are Asian, not African. This composition is inevitably reflected in the stories people choose to write, read, film and watch.
  - moomin 9y ago
    There's truth in that, although I'd say the composition is still wrong. Famously, Midsomer Murders is way less diverse that the average Cambridgeshire village (which no-one would describe as a melting-pot). Equally, there really aren't that many decent Asian roles either (there have been some successful comedies, some good, some bad). And London... well, this isn't really about race but London rarely looks like London. As an aside, the PC Peter Grant series (aka Rivers of London) depicts London way more accurately than most fiction, despite teeming with elves and goblins.
tnecniv 9y ago
How does Homicide compare to The Wire?
- bmelton 9y ago
  So, it's a decade earlier, which means that the cinematography is a decade behind. The camera work is often sloppy, and the soundtrack is, at times, atrocious. That said, the stories are just as compelling, and just as well told. If not for the faults I reference above, I'd strongly recommend it as epically great television -- and it is, if you can look past those faults, but sometimes they're pretty glaring. Andre Braugher though? He's pretty amazing throughout the series.
  - tclancy 9y ago
    The camerawork isn't sloppy, it's intentional. It may feel very dated, but at the time it was something new and interesting.
    - bmelton 9y ago
      I know that hand-held was an intentional choice, as was 16mm, but even for what it is, it still seems sloppy in spots. There are a number of sloppy pans back and forth during conversations, and because they eschewed camera trucks / sleds / dollies / etc., there are walking backwards shots in which you can tell the cameraman is walking backwards by the camera bob. That said, I'm not privy to the production details, so if even those things were intentional, then so be it, but it definitely feels dated and off, relative to The Wire.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      A lot of shows were doing jerkycam in the 1990s - NYPD Blue probably being the most hyped at the time.
tclancy 9y ago
I would definitely recommend his original book, "Homicide". I read it as a kid and it was eye-opening to see how even someone as open-minded/ hopeful(?) as Simon got ground down by the cycle of poverty.
michaelchisari 9y ago
I've been telling everyone who will listen about "Show Me A Hero".
long 9y ago
I tried getting into Treme but couldn't hack it. Maybe I'll give it another try, though -- what was the appeal of it for you?
- emmanuel_1234 9y ago
  As a fan of The Wire, to me it was the music, mostly.
- bmelton 9y ago
  It took me a long time to switch gears. Going from The Wire to Treme is kind of like switching from Windows to Linux -- the hardest part is unlearning what you already know. In my case, I kept expecting Treme to be more Wire-esque. It isn't, at all. It's its own show, with its own characters, in its own city. What it has in common with The Wire is that its characters are richly crafted, and they're whole characters. Nobody in any David Simon show is a throwaway character, and that might not ever have been more true than in Treme. Also, the acting is exceptional, in every scene, and in every case. Another commonality is that of the failures of people, and of the institutions that ostensibly aim to protect them. Like The Wire, Treme is filled with a panoply of people all attempting their best in every task, but as in life, those people sometimes fail, and often those failures come at the expense of somebody else. Just as in The Wire, we often get to see the impact of those failures up close and personal, and we get to feel the hurt it causes, while sympathizing with those who made whatever mistake caused the failure, and far too often to be comfortable, we get to pick which one of those people we prefer. There are big differences, obviously. The Wire is, at its core, a cops and robbers drama, with some other stuff going on. Treme focuses more on the people, and less on the game they're playing. Music plays a much bigger role in Treme than in The Wire, but that's a commonality too, as David Simon works tend to feature the city as a character, and Treme's set in New Orleans, and that music is part of New Orleans' character. The narrative in Treme meanders around A LOT. It all basically wraps itself up by the end, but while The Wire managed to tell a basically cohesive story each season, Treme's big plot is spread out, with blurrier lines. It gives you the feeling of closure with each season finale, but the collection of tales being told don't, and really, keep going well after the show's end. At the end of the day though, the main difference is that narrative draw. If you need one, maybe Treme isn't for you. Sure, it has political corruption, and criminal investigations, and the occasional legal proceeding, but at its core Treme is really just a window into the lives of a couple dozen folks making their way in post-Katrina New Orleans. We get to see how the storm affected them, and how the city affected them, and sometimes, how they've affected the city -- whether by making their mark on it, or succumbing to its ways, or in some cases, getting out while the getting is good. It isn't about anything that I could wrap up into a few sentences, but it's a deep cultural exploration into a culturally rich and beautiful people, and it's a showcase for some of the best damn music around, and it's an expose into the triumphs and troubles of people just trying to make it work in a city at a time when nothing's working as it should. It's also the inverse of that, in true David Simon form, so -- yeah, nobody can fault you for having a hard time making an adjustment, but it's worth adjusting if you can manage it.