8 ms·

It looks great on paper but the devil will be in the detail and how well they execute on the admin/bureaucracy side. If my experience a few years ago with the

It looks great on paper but the devil will be in the detail and how well they execute on the admin/bureaucracy side. If my experience a few years ago with the auto entrepreneur scheme and URSAFF are anything to go by, you'll need a lot of patience, the ability to speak half decent French and a sense of humour if you want to avoid ripping all your hair out :) I love France (have even married one of their citizens!) but this is a country where in 2013 we moved from one department to another and had to close our bank accounts with the branches in the first department and open new ones in the second department because there was no way to migrate accounts between branches of the same bank o_O We literally had to post cheques to a friend in the old department so he could deposit them while we waited for the old accounts to be closed and new ones opened (complete with different cards, chequebooks, account numbers - the works). Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch. Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one). Having said all of that, France is awesome despite its flaws and there are lots of reasons to be hopeful with Macron now piloting the ship.

wanghq 9y ago
Sounds like there are lots of opportunities...for startups, to improve these areas.
- ptero 9y ago
  Startups do well when they improve things for people who vote with their wallets (buying this or that service). Bureaucracies though are a completely different beast. Better value? Happier customers? They care not a bit. You need different levers to (sloooowly) move them.
  - apatters 9y ago
    What are those levers? Are you aware of any examples where an effort to move them was successful?
    - ptero 9y ago
      I think one common way is to get a high ranking bureaucrat to mandate the change. It is not a guarantee, but a good enabler. I suspect pride, shame (you still use paper receipts for this?), media or even bribes are used. For examples, I would look at automating standard government functions (e.g., car registrations, toll collections, etc.). Putting those online leaves some clerks unemployed and is thus often resisted by default, so someone found a working path for each of those
    - graniter 9y ago
      I think competition among countries actually helps. Case in point: this visa program. They are trying to make it more streamlined and more attractive with a longer expiration. It is improvement in the right direction.
  - graniter 9y ago
    Exactly. You can't enter the market and provide better service for "government administration." You could offer a service to help a person, but the person still has to go through it all.
- bsaul 9y ago
  Absolutely not. The reason things are like described ( although it's not as bad today), is because many sectors are heavily regulated, and belong to a few actors abusing their monopolistic position. There's a reason the european union gave a 500millions fine to the french bank a decade ago ( but things didn't move a lot). As an example, all the online banking start ups belong ( or were created as subsidiaries of) big banks. All of them.
wavefunction 9y ago
W the bank thing, I had to do that with Wells Fargo when I moved from Colorado to Texas in 2009.
- cakedoggie 9y ago
  Sure, but the French example is moving suburbs in a city. The could have moved less than a few km and had a problem.
  - rockinghigh 9y ago
    This cannot be true. I have multiple bank accounts in France and never had to do this.
    - Majestic121 9y ago
      It really depends on the bank, I had to change accounts as well when I was with Credit Agricole, but all is fine and dandy since I am with Boursorama
      - 4c2383f5c88e911 9y ago
        Well, Crédit Agricole is kind of a special case, at it was initially for farmers and the like (which do not usually move), and has a heavy reliance on local branches. Although I remember my parents having an account there and not having that issue after moving on the other side of the country.
        zdkl 9y ago
        Yeah a recurring theme in this thread seems to be non french people getting caught in our public service vs private(ised) operator spectrum. As the saying goes "it's not a bug, it's a feature"! Word of advice from an equally confused native: smile and ask questions. That ought to get you far enough unless you're in Paris (my condolences if you have to deal with the ile de france préfectures or mairies).
rorykoehler 9y ago
On top of this Macron wants to ban encryption (just like May in the UK). It all sounds like lip service and bluster from here.
- GuiA 9y ago
  He has. That being said, he has nominated some semi competent people for tech related things (eg Mounor Mahjoubi as ministre du numérique) so hopefully that was all campaign talk and won't actually get implemented. Fingers crossed.
  - cm2187 9y ago
    The first decision he took as a president is to renew the Etat d'Urgence (which suspends many civil liberties) while having campaigned against the "Etat d'Urgence permanent", which probably doesn't require a translation. So there is indeed hope that he won't follow his campaign line to the letter.
    - zdkl 9y ago
      While I agree in spirit with your point, I cannot help but imagine the shitfest of goal realignment that must follow the first your-eyes-only presidential briefing from the intel agencies.
      - raverbashing 9y ago
        Correct. It would be irresponsible to remove it now.
        cm2187 9y ago
        Not really. There is no more terrorism now than there has been for the past 50 years. We forget it but Europe, and France in particular has been constantly the target of violent terrorist attacks. The OAS for a while, then far left extremists and pro-Palestinian movements, then state-sponsored terrorism (Iran, Libya), the Algerian islamists (FIS), now a broader stream of home grown islamism, and of course all sort of other movements (corsican nationalists, far rights, etc). I don't see why there would be a need for a Etat d'Urgence now but not in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s... Plus the scale of casualties of terrorism is dwarfed by common crime for which the state response has been the exact opposite than to terrorism (i.e. to reduce or eliminate jail sentences). And if this Etat d'Urgence was used solely against terrorism, it could be debatable, but instead it is clearly being used against lots of non-islamist terrorist targets (including preventing people from demonstrating against the previous government labour laws...) so I believe we are in a clean cut abuse of power situation. More worryingly, Macron's exit from the Etat d'Urgent Permanent strategy involves basically making these exceptional measures permanent by adding them to common law. So low expectations...
kakwa_ 9y ago
You should change bank ^^. Personally, I've moved two times and I didn't have to do the close/open/cheque stuff. And the direct debit authorization I've since before the first move keep working. As for cheques, It's very rarely used, I still use the first chequebook I was given when I opened my bank account more than 10 years ago. I've never experienced the "pay by cheque" at the super market since I was a child. Cheques are used in very few situations, the last I encountered was for the "solde de tout compte" when I left my previous job.
- corford 9y ago
  I don't live in France anymore and don't have the accounts but they were big banks: Credit Agricole and Caisse D'Epargne. I've heard similar stories with Banque Populaire too. As for cheque usage, 4 years ago (when I was there) loads of people were still using them (young and old). This is in central and south France (no idea about Paris, never lived there).
tajen 9y ago
At least 20% of French people express capitalism-hostile opinions (and it goes well beyond Mélenchon voters). You face hostility as soon as you make money, with consequences ranging from being denied places in the kindergarten to the "petit Gregory" affair where the 5 years old son of a newly promoted team leader was drowned. I'm trying to show off as much as I can that I'm sponsoring poverty, donating a lot, making a lot for minorities, etc, because truth is, I'm afraid of getting mugged. People who criticize me, talking as if I belonged to the group of tax evaders, themselves don't have a clean business and evade taxes just as much as Greek citizen, so don't expect any rationality in their despicable criticism. Things can be so simple as, if you don't buy locally-grown groceries, you deserve to be told off in public for not helping the local population. If you belong to the Christian minority, expect to be harassed by those you say "We need to respect all religions". Everyday you'll face jokes like "priests rape kids, followers are stuck-up, donating is worse than sponsoring a mafia". President Macron himself is seen as a capitalist enemy by those 20-50%, and this Mélenchon group explicitly denies his legitimacy. There are currently very active groups and many of my friends are preparing the ground on Facebook (God knows what kind of riots they're preparing for September – you think I'm kidding? wait and watch). French people are entirely hostile to privately-owned companies and average-wealthy managers, so, no, I wouldn't recommend my country for entrepreneurs, not until they make peace with a reasonable dose of capitslism. And that's where I have hope for Macron: If he does the right things, he may tame anti-capitalism sentiments a bit and show that hard works does bring money.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- reacweb 9y ago
  I am french. I do not understand why you have been moded down.
- _kyran 9y ago
  This is true. I've spent the past couple of months in various areas of France. I can't speak for all ages, but the youth are incredibly passionate about politics and many hold strong anti capitalism beliefs and will enthusiastically riot at the chance to have their opinions heard.
zmb_ 9y ago
> the ability to speak half decent French After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life, or paying the significant opportunity cost of learning a new language -- which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business, and which won't help you in the next country in which you live. What is needed is a joint common language (English) that everyone in the EU learns starting in kindergarten and in which you're guaranteed state services in every member state. But there is no chance the French and German speakers would ever agree to that, it is like a religious issue.
- nraynaud 9y ago
  Yep, but the Brits are were pain in the butt so we decided not to use English for that role, because that would be rewarding a kid for throwing his feces at a party. When they are gone, I guess the discussion could be re-opened.
  - peteretep 9y ago
    Or when we come crawling back, which I am hopeful is becoming an ever larger possibility
  - toyg 9y ago
    It won't and it shouldn't. The French will never, ever agree to anything that officially places their language on a lower level. They might accept de-facto lingua franca status for English, but they'll never sign anything that mandates it or recognises it. Discussing language is a recipe for pointless strife; the next step really should be taxation standards. This said, the market is adjusting on its own. EU customers are voting with their wallets, and the more they move around, the more English-speaking cross-border businesses flourish.
    - oblio 9y ago
nraynaud 9y ago
For the record, I have not emitted a check in France for at least the past 10 years. I might have cashed one or two.
- reacweb 9y ago
  You have not child at school.
  - nraynaud 9y ago
    oh, yeah, I see how that could be an issue. Our schools are really holding us back.
- lloeki 9y ago
  It's also the default when paying for a car or other big expenses that would overflow card limits. Some doctors are also hell-bent on not taking carte vitale and "tiers payant", nor credit card. In such cases checks are practical.
NicoJuicy 9y ago
I'm not exactly sure, but i think of the EU countries. Flanders in Belgium would be a better place to start then France. All developers/people speak: French, English and Dutch. The only thing is, the taxes are very high. But on the other hand, the health care is awesome and cheap. Flemish people are also known to be hard workers Anekdote: I'm Flemish, but this is what polls/research of EU-countries also conclude. The things you hear in the news, is mostly when the Southern part of Belgium is involved ( strikes, political crisis, Brussels-Molenbeek). Due to differences between North and South Belgium ( south = very socialist and even communism since recently, where north is more liberal) I actually believe the northern part of Belgium has more in common with the Netherlands, than the southern part.. PS. I'll probably be downvoted, but please add your opinion. I know it's very controversial. That doesn't mean i'm wrong. If you think i'm wrong, i'm open for alternative opinions as always.
- zer0tonin 9y ago
  The Belgian administration is an even bigger mess than France. I have a colleague that had to wait 8 month in Brussles for his residency card, which is required for a ton of stuff (ie. getting a phone number in belgium). Also in actual Flanders, some people in the administration will only ever talk to you in Dutch, even if they understand English and French.
  - NicoJuicy 9y ago
    There is indeed too much administration and official communication with the governement is in Dutch, no disagreement there ( although i think you can change this for businesses). Administration is improving though.
thbt 9y ago
I have the Auto Entrpreneur status (even though I'm currently employed). If you understand french, registering to it is a breeze, otherwise you can find help online, I agree that it could be improved though. You can use an online bank if you think you'll move around a lot. Plus today it has become very easy to switch bank thanks to Loi Macron, and most bank now take charge of everything to attract new customers.
yardie 9y ago
I definitely understand you in the banking thing. We found out a lot of their banks aren't actually banks but regional credit unions. Our bank in rive gauche was not the same bank in Picardi or Bordeaux. Getting new cards required us to drive down from Paris to our actual branch in Bordeaux. We eventually transferred to a large multinational bank. It requires us to keep a lot of funds in their account. But I can deposit a check anywhere in France.
coredog64 9y ago
> which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one). Don't they have the printers that will fill in your check?
- rjsw 9y ago
  They do but it is still slower than paying by card.
lloeki 9y ago
I went through a similar situation myself and had a similar yet more positive experience. > Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch. Not true for all banks, national ones (like BNP) always allowed to deposit anywhere, and for most you could mail directly to the account branch (no need to go through a friend). Also, online banks solve this nicely. > Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one). "Half" is overemphatic, even for 2013. This is not the case anymore, huge majority now pays via chip and pin cards and waiting in line is not so much of a problem with self-checkout machines.

wanghq 9y ago

Sounds like there are lots of opportunities...for startups, to improve these areas.

ptero 9y ago
Startups do well when they improve things for people who vote with their wallets (buying this or that service). Bureaucracies though are a completely different beast. Better value? Happier customers? They care not a bit. You need different levers to (sloooowly) move them.
- apatters 9y ago
  What are those levers? Are you aware of any examples where an effort to move them was successful?
  - ptero 9y ago
    I think one common way is to get a high ranking bureaucrat to mandate the change. It is not a guarantee, but a good enabler. I suspect pride, shame (you still use paper receipts for this?), media or even bribes are used. For examples, I would look at automating standard government functions (e.g., car registrations, toll collections, etc.). Putting those online leaves some clerks unemployed and is thus often resisted by default, so someone found a working path for each of those
  - graniter 9y ago
    I think competition among countries actually helps. Case in point: this visa program. They are trying to make it more streamlined and more attractive with a longer expiration. It is improvement in the right direction.
- graniter 9y ago
  Exactly. You can't enter the market and provide better service for "government administration." You could offer a service to help a person, but the person still has to go through it all.
bsaul 9y ago
Absolutely not. The reason things are like described ( although it's not as bad today), is because many sectors are heavily regulated, and belong to a few actors abusing their monopolistic position. There's a reason the european union gave a 500millions fine to the french bank a decade ago ( but things didn't move a lot). As an example, all the online banking start ups belong ( or were created as subsidiaries of) big banks. All of them.

wavefunction 9y ago

W the bank thing, I had to do that with Wells Fargo when I moved from Colorado to Texas in 2009.

cakedoggie 9y ago
Sure, but the French example is moving suburbs in a city. The could have moved less than a few km and had a problem.
- rockinghigh 9y ago
  This cannot be true. I have multiple bank accounts in France and never had to do this.
  - Majestic121 9y ago
    It really depends on the bank, I had to change accounts as well when I was with Credit Agricole, but all is fine and dandy since I am with Boursorama
    - 4c2383f5c88e911 9y ago
      Well, Crédit Agricole is kind of a special case, at it was initially for farmers and the like (which do not usually move), and has a heavy reliance on local branches. Although I remember my parents having an account there and not having that issue after moving on the other side of the country.
      - zdkl 9y ago
        Yeah a recurring theme in this thread seems to be non french people getting caught in our public service vs private(ised) operator spectrum. As the saying goes "it's not a bug, it's a feature"! Word of advice from an equally confused native: smile and ask questions. That ought to get you far enough unless you're in Paris (my condolences if you have to deal with the ile de france préfectures or mairies).

rorykoehler 9y ago

On top of this Macron wants to ban encryption (just like May in the UK). It all sounds like lip service and bluster from here.

GuiA 9y ago
He has. That being said, he has nominated some semi competent people for tech related things (eg Mounor Mahjoubi as ministre du numérique) so hopefully that was all campaign talk and won't actually get implemented. Fingers crossed.
- cm2187 9y ago
  The first decision he took as a president is to renew the Etat d'Urgence (which suspends many civil liberties) while having campaigned against the "Etat d'Urgence permanent", which probably doesn't require a translation. So there is indeed hope that he won't follow his campaign line to the letter.
  - zdkl 9y ago
    While I agree in spirit with your point, I cannot help but imagine the shitfest of goal realignment that must follow the first your-eyes-only presidential briefing from the intel agencies.
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      Correct. It would be irresponsible to remove it now.
      - cm2187 9y ago
        Not really. There is no more terrorism now than there has been for the past 50 years. We forget it but Europe, and France in particular has been constantly the target of violent terrorist attacks. The OAS for a while, then far left extremists and pro-Palestinian movements, then state-sponsored terrorism (Iran, Libya), the Algerian islamists (FIS), now a broader stream of home grown islamism, and of course all sort of other movements (corsican nationalists, far rights, etc). I don't see why there would be a need for a Etat d'Urgence now but not in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s... Plus the scale of casualties of terrorism is dwarfed by common crime for which the state response has been the exact opposite than to terrorism (i.e. to reduce or eliminate jail sentences). And if this Etat d'Urgence was used solely against terrorism, it could be debatable, but instead it is clearly being used against lots of non-islamist terrorist targets (including preventing people from demonstrating against the previous government labour laws...) so I believe we are in a clean cut abuse of power situation. More worryingly, Macron's exit from the Etat d'Urgent Permanent strategy involves basically making these exceptional measures permanent by adding them to common law. So low expectations...

kakwa_ 9y ago

You should change bank ^^. Personally, I've moved two times and I didn't have to do the close/open/cheque stuff. And the direct debit authorization I've since before the first move keep working. As for cheques, It's very rarely used, I still use the first chequebook I was given when I opened my bank account more than 10 years ago. I've never experienced the "pay by cheque" at the super market since I was a child. Cheques are used in very few situations, the last I encountered was for the "solde de tout compte" when I left my previous job.

corford 9y ago
I don't live in France anymore and don't have the accounts but they were big banks: Credit Agricole and Caisse D'Epargne. I've heard similar stories with Banque Populaire too. As for cheque usage, 4 years ago (when I was there) loads of people were still using them (young and old). This is in central and south France (no idea about Paris, never lived there).

tajen 9y ago

At least 20% of French people express capitalism-hostile opinions (and it goes well beyond Mélenchon voters). You face hostility as soon as you make money, with consequences ranging from being denied places in the kindergarten to the "petit Gregory" affair where the 5 years old son of a newly promoted team leader was drowned. I'm trying to show off as much as I can that I'm sponsoring poverty, donating a lot, making a lot for minorities, etc, because truth is, I'm afraid of getting mugged. People who criticize me, talking as if I belonged to the group of tax evaders, themselves don't have a clean business and evade taxes just as much as Greek citizen, so don't expect any rationality in their despicable criticism. Things can be so simple as, if you don't buy locally-grown groceries, you deserve to be told off in public for not helping the local population. If you belong to the Christian minority, expect to be harassed by those you say "We need to respect all religions". Everyday you'll face jokes like "priests rape kids, followers are stuck-up, donating is worse than sponsoring a mafia". President Macron himself is seen as a capitalist enemy by those 20-50%, and this Mélenchon group explicitly denies his legitimacy. There are currently very active groups and many of my friends are preparing the ground on Facebook (God knows what kind of riots they're preparing for September – you think I'm kidding? wait and watch). French people are entirely hostile to privately-owned companies and average-wealthy managers, so, no, I wouldn't recommend my country for entrepreneurs, not until they make peace with a reasonable dose of capitslism. And that's where I have hope for Macron: If he does the right things, he may tame anti-capitalism sentiments a bit and show that hard works does bring money.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
reacweb 9y ago
I am french. I do not understand why you have been moded down.
_kyran 9y ago
This is true. I've spent the past couple of months in various areas of France. I can't speak for all ages, but the youth are incredibly passionate about politics and many hold strong anti capitalism beliefs and will enthusiastically riot at the chance to have their opinions heard.

zmb_ 9y ago

> the ability to speak half decent French After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life, or paying the significant opportunity cost of learning a new language -- which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business, and which won't help you in the next country in which you live. What is needed is a joint common language (English) that everyone in the EU learns starting in kindergarten and in which you're guaranteed state services in every member state. But there is no chance the French and German speakers would ever agree to that, it is like a religious issue.

nraynaud 9y ago
Yep, but the Brits are were pain in the butt so we decided not to use English for that role, because that would be rewarding a kid for throwing his feces at a party. When they are gone, I guess the discussion could be re-opened.
- peteretep 9y ago
  Or when we come crawling back, which I am hopeful is becoming an ever larger possibility
- toyg 9y ago
  It won't and it shouldn't. The French will never, ever agree to anything that officially places their language on a lower level. They might accept de-facto lingua franca status for English, but they'll never sign anything that mandates it or recognises it. Discussing language is a recipe for pointless strife; the next step really should be taxation standards. This said, the market is adjusting on its own. EU customers are voting with their wallets, and the more they move around, the more English-speaking cross-border businesses flourish.
  - oblio 9y ago

nraynaud 9y ago

For the record, I have not emitted a check in France for at least the past 10 years. I might have cashed one or two.

reacweb 9y ago
You have not child at school.
- nraynaud 9y ago
  oh, yeah, I see how that could be an issue. Our schools are really holding us back.
lloeki 9y ago
It's also the default when paying for a car or other big expenses that would overflow card limits. Some doctors are also hell-bent on not taking carte vitale and "tiers payant", nor credit card. In such cases checks are practical.

NicoJuicy 9y ago

I'm not exactly sure, but i think of the EU countries. Flanders in Belgium would be a better place to start then France. All developers/people speak: French, English and Dutch. The only thing is, the taxes are very high. But on the other hand, the health care is awesome and cheap. Flemish people are also known to be hard workers Anekdote: I'm Flemish, but this is what polls/research of EU-countries also conclude. The things you hear in the news, is mostly when the Southern part of Belgium is involved ( strikes, political crisis, Brussels-Molenbeek). Due to differences between North and South Belgium ( south = very socialist and even communism since recently, where north is more liberal) I actually believe the northern part of Belgium has more in common with the Netherlands, than the southern part.. PS. I'll probably be downvoted, but please add your opinion. I know it's very controversial. That doesn't mean i'm wrong. If you think i'm wrong, i'm open for alternative opinions as always.

zer0tonin 9y ago
The Belgian administration is an even bigger mess than France. I have a colleague that had to wait 8 month in Brussles for his residency card, which is required for a ton of stuff (ie. getting a phone number in belgium). Also in actual Flanders, some people in the administration will only ever talk to you in Dutch, even if they understand English and French.
- NicoJuicy 9y ago
  There is indeed too much administration and official communication with the governement is in Dutch, no disagreement there ( although i think you can change this for businesses). Administration is improving though.

thbt 9y ago

I have the Auto Entrpreneur status (even though I'm currently employed). If you understand french, registering to it is a breeze, otherwise you can find help online, I agree that it could be improved though. You can use an online bank if you think you'll move around a lot. Plus today it has become very easy to switch bank thanks to Loi Macron, and most bank now take charge of everything to attract new customers.

yardie 9y ago

I definitely understand you in the banking thing. We found out a lot of their banks aren't actually banks but regional credit unions. Our bank in rive gauche was not the same bank in Picardi or Bordeaux. Getting new cards required us to drive down from Paris to our actual branch in Bordeaux. We eventually transferred to a large multinational bank. It requires us to keep a lot of funds in their account. But I can deposit a check anywhere in France.

coredog64 9y ago

> which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one). Don't they have the printers that will fill in your check?

rjsw 9y ago
They do but it is still slower than paying by card.

lloeki 9y ago

I went through a similar situation myself and had a similar yet more positive experience. > Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch. Not true for all banks, national ones (like BNP) always allowed to deposit anywhere, and for most you could mail directly to the account branch (no need to go through a friend). Also, online banks solve this nicely. > Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one). "Half" is overemphatic, even for 2013. This is not the case anymore, huge majority now pays via chip and pin cards and waiting in line is not so much of a problem with self-checkout machines.