5 ms·

No, around 40k€ / year, before taxes.

by raitom 9y ago

foepys 9y ago
You cannot directly compare a San Francisco salary to a French/Western European salary. Healthcare, benefits, rent, etc. are completely different.
- richardknop 9y ago
  You can compare contracting in London/Zurich/other financial centre. There you can get on par with SF salaries as contractor. Btw, rent in London is about the same as SF or slightly higher. So even with benefits included it's a worse deal. I don't know what the situation with renting is like in Paris but given how low salaries are rent would have to be much lower compared to London in order for it to make sense to work there instead.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Paris: Rent is 1000 to 1500 € a month for a 1 bedroom. Add the utilities and council tax on top. That's tough considering a typical salary of 40k/year is about 2k/month after all taxes.
    - richardknop 9y ago
      Yeah. In London I pay £1800 for 1 bedroom in zone 1. But at least you can make £120k per year here as contractor so it's manageable. What's the contracting market like in Paris?
      - user5994461 9y ago
        In the context of a London vs Paris comparison, there isn't a contracting market in Paris. French companies don't hire individual contractors directly. It's part of the culture.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  Better explain them beforehand otherwise it's not gonna fly. Even with Trump as a strawman
slau 9y ago
Sure, but it's not just that. The quality of life could be argued to be significantly higher than in other places. The job security once you land a decent gig is not something to be discarded. This being said, Macron does plan on making it easier for people to be fired, in order to make it easier for companies to hire. This is a big topic that I could rant for hours about. You do get all-inclusive health care. In addition to what the government provides, most 40k€ jobs will come with an extra private insurance ("mutuelle"), which will effectively reduce health costs for you and your family to 0. Depending on how nice your company is, you might be _taxed_ on an extra 20-40€ of monthly income, which gives mutuelle rights to you and your family. If you're unlucky, 20-40€ will be deducted from your pay for every family member on the mutuelle. This is usually not negotiable as it is managed/negotiated by the employee representatives/unions. You also get fairly decent rents. 600€/month will get you a flat in any city, except Paris/Lyon. 1000-1400€ will get you a nice place in most cities. You also get access to a decent transportation network to most Europe, and a very good internet connectivity, at the consumer level. I moved from France to Denmark. I would say my wealth has increased (2-3x salary increase), but my overall stress has massively increased. France has a lot of good things going for it.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  To what do you attribute the rise in stress - you only gave details on France and the salary change. Also did you already speak Danish?
  - slau 9y ago
    I don't speak Danish, although I can read it fairly well---Dutch helps a lot. Language isn't much of a barrier. English works in 90% of cases, and broken Danish works in the other 10%. The first two modules of Danish classes are sufficient to survive anything given a proficient level of English (for context, there are around 6 or 7 modules, and they're all free, sponsored by the local government). The main sources of stress are lodging, weather, and social life. Finding a place to live is ridiculously difficult. As a foreigner, you will be forced to pay 12-15k DKK to get anything decent (think 2k€). Having to deal with short term rentals, visiting places daily for 2-3 months on end to find something you both like and can afford, etc. Dealing with landlords who abuse the terms of the contract, openly cheat and game the system, outright lie and manipulate. I currently pay 15k for a 110m2 flat, 20 minutes bike distance from the city center. My Danish friends tell me I'm overpaying and should get on waiting lists (which take anywhere from 1 to 10 years to come to fruition), my immigrant friends tell me how lucky I am. The weather might sound like a frivolous point, but the lack of sunlight during the winter, and the overabundance of it during the summer will strain your body. At least it did mine. Random chocolate cravings in the winter. Insomnia during the summer. The last point, social life, is an interesting one. Although I know a lot more people, and have more "friends" than I did when I lived in the UK, France, or Australia, they are a lot more difficult. Drinking is a real problem, and the fact that I don't is even moreso. There's such a social pressure to drink, that I often have to give in. I often have to order a beer not to be laughed at, interrogated, etc. There's also a lot more pressure to become a parent. Maybe this is due to my age, but it is a topic that has come up a lot more than anywhere else. Heck, when I interviewed here before moving, it was one of the selling points ("You know, Denmark is a _great_ place to have kids.") In fairness: I'm working in startups now, which probably also accounts for a good portion of the increased stress.
lern_too_spel 9y ago
The minimum salary for people who work in France on this Visa is €53,836.50 by law. The minimum legal salary for people working on H1B in the US is $60000, but in practice, the salary is of course much higher. This isn't going to draw very many Silicon Valley engineers to France, but it could bring some people to France who failed to get an H1B.
- samfisher83 9y ago
  Many indians know English, but how many of them know french. It's hard to live in a country without knowing the language.
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    That barrier affects Americans and Indians (and other H1B seekers) equally. The difference is that most H1B seekers have more motivation to leave their own countries.
- computereye 9y ago
  53k is considered a high salary in France, at least if you're younger than 40 with no big responsibilities.
- conradfr 9y ago
  Bear in mind that with €53,836.50 in Paris you can rent 40/45m² (if you're alone).

No, around 40k€ / year, before taxes.

by raitom 9y ago

No, around 40k€ / year, before taxes.

You cannot directly compare a San Francisco salary to a French/Western European salary. Healthcare, benefits, rent, etc. are completely different.

richardknop 9y ago
You can compare contracting in London/Zurich/other financial centre. There you can get on par with SF salaries as contractor. Btw, rent in London is about the same as SF or slightly higher. So even with benefits included it's a worse deal. I don't know what the situation with renting is like in Paris but given how low salaries are rent would have to be much lower compared to London in order for it to make sense to work there instead.
- user5994461 9y ago
  Paris: Rent is 1000 to 1500 € a month for a 1 bedroom. Add the utilities and council tax on top. That's tough considering a typical salary of 40k/year is about 2k/month after all taxes.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Yeah. In London I pay £1800 for 1 bedroom in zone 1. But at least you can make £120k per year here as contractor so it's manageable. What's the contracting market like in Paris?
    - user5994461 9y ago
      In the context of a London vs Paris comparison, there isn't a contracting market in Paris. French companies don't hire individual contractors directly. It's part of the culture.
agumonkey 9y ago
Better explain them beforehand otherwise it's not gonna fly. Even with Trump as a strawman

slau 9y ago

Sure, but it's not just that. The quality of life could be argued to be significantly higher than in other places. The job security once you land a decent gig is not something to be discarded. This being said, Macron does plan on making it easier for people to be fired, in order to make it easier for companies to hire. This is a big topic that I could rant for hours about. You do get all-inclusive health care. In addition to what the government provides, most 40k€ jobs will come with an extra private insurance ("mutuelle"), which will effectively reduce health costs for you and your family to 0. Depending on how nice your company is, you might be _taxed_ on an extra 20-40€ of monthly income, which gives mutuelle rights to you and your family. If you're unlucky, 20-40€ will be deducted from your pay for every family member on the mutuelle. This is usually not negotiable as it is managed/negotiated by the employee representatives/unions. You also get fairly decent rents. 600€/month will get you a flat in any city, except Paris/Lyon. 1000-1400€ will get you a nice place in most cities. You also get access to a decent transportation network to most Europe, and a very good internet connectivity, at the consumer level. I moved from France to Denmark. I would say my wealth has increased (2-3x salary increase), but my overall stress has massively increased. France has a lot of good things going for it.

stevenwoo 9y ago
To what do you attribute the rise in stress - you only gave details on France and the salary change. Also did you already speak Danish?
- slau 9y ago
  I don't speak Danish, although I can read it fairly well---Dutch helps a lot. Language isn't much of a barrier. English works in 90% of cases, and broken Danish works in the other 10%. The first two modules of Danish classes are sufficient to survive anything given a proficient level of English (for context, there are around 6 or 7 modules, and they're all free, sponsored by the local government). The main sources of stress are lodging, weather, and social life. Finding a place to live is ridiculously difficult. As a foreigner, you will be forced to pay 12-15k DKK to get anything decent (think 2k€). Having to deal with short term rentals, visiting places daily for 2-3 months on end to find something you both like and can afford, etc. Dealing with landlords who abuse the terms of the contract, openly cheat and game the system, outright lie and manipulate. I currently pay 15k for a 110m2 flat, 20 minutes bike distance from the city center. My Danish friends tell me I'm overpaying and should get on waiting lists (which take anywhere from 1 to 10 years to come to fruition), my immigrant friends tell me how lucky I am. The weather might sound like a frivolous point, but the lack of sunlight during the winter, and the overabundance of it during the summer will strain your body. At least it did mine. Random chocolate cravings in the winter. Insomnia during the summer. The last point, social life, is an interesting one. Although I know a lot more people, and have more "friends" than I did when I lived in the UK, France, or Australia, they are a lot more difficult. Drinking is a real problem, and the fact that I don't is even moreso. There's such a social pressure to drink, that I often have to give in. I often have to order a beer not to be laughed at, interrogated, etc. There's also a lot more pressure to become a parent. Maybe this is due to my age, but it is a topic that has come up a lot more than anywhere else. Heck, when I interviewed here before moving, it was one of the selling points ("You know, Denmark is a _great_ place to have kids.") In fairness: I'm working in startups now, which probably also accounts for a good portion of the increased stress.

lern_too_spel 9y ago

The minimum salary for people who work in France on this Visa is €53,836.50 by law. The minimum legal salary for people working on H1B in the US is $60000, but in practice, the salary is of course much higher. This isn't going to draw very many Silicon Valley engineers to France, but it could bring some people to France who failed to get an H1B.

samfisher83 9y ago
Many indians know English, but how many of them know french. It's hard to live in a country without knowing the language.
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  That barrier affects Americans and Indians (and other H1B seekers) equally. The difference is that most H1B seekers have more motivation to leave their own countries.
computereye 9y ago
53k is considered a high salary in France, at least if you're younger than 40 with no big responsibilities.
conradfr 9y ago
Bear in mind that with €53,836.50 in Paris you can rent 40/45m² (if you're alone).