3 ms·

You don't read my posts, but you're getting upvotes, and this story still has traction on HN. I apologize for continuing this discussion, but you are spreading

by gcv 16y ago

You don't read my posts, but you're getting upvotes, and this story still has traction on HN. I apologize for continuing this discussion, but you are spreading FUD, and some people might getting the wrong impression. It assumes the lib is in a maven rep Gems assumes that the gem is available in a Gem repository. I see no practical difference. it assumes use of lien [sic] "rubygems" is a separate package from MRI in Ubuntu. Standard or not, you have to install it. You also have to install Leiningen. With time, Leiningen or a tool like it will become a de-facto standard. Your original post strongly implied that no good tools exist for Clojure package management. This is false, and I refuted this claim. maven is a beast Yes. I wrote that in my original post; I'm glad you at least read that part. Leiningen uses Maven repositories and dependency resolution under the hood, yes. My example, however, does not use Maven at all. Most projects which use Leiningen to manage dependencies do not need to worry about Maven's intricacies at all. You said that clojure is as easy as ruby for a noob. Nowhere in any post did I say that Clojure the language is as easy as Ruby. That would have been a meaningless statement. I actually said that the Java classpath is no worse that PYTHONPATH or GEM_PATH. I meant exactly that. Dependency path management sucks in every environment I've ever seen. I said nothing at all about the Gem toolchain, or how well it helps mitigate the problem. It certainly has had several years to mature. That said, six month-old Leiningen is decently close to the simplicity that Gems provides.

jshen 16y ago
me: "It assumes the lib is in a maven rep" you: "Gems assumes that the gem is available in a Gem repository. I see no practical difference." Hm, I can't figure you out. Your statement is missing the point. I don't know if you see that point and are cherry picking on purpose or if you don't know both ecosystems. I've done a lot of ruby, a lot of java, and a fair amount of clojure. I frequently run into very common java libs that are not in a maven repo. It's a common occurrence. I can't think of any significant ruby lib that isn't in a gem repo. The two situations are not equivalent. "Nowhere in any post did I say that Clojure the language is as easy as Ruby." Again, this is literally correct, but I feel you've implied it. You're like the Karl Rove of comp sci. The original comment was complaining that the clojure noob experience appeared painful. You then said that the java classpath was no worse than gem_path. This is both wrong (the need for class loaders is one example of why, and my highlighting of the ease of use of gems is another), but it's also clearly implying that using libs in clojure is as easy for a noob as it is in ruby land. You can claim that you weren't implying that, but if that's the case then your reply was meaningless. Again, this is Karl Rove style hair splitting on your part. Let me be clear then. The noob experience in ruby is much better than in clojure. Do you disagree? I've taken your statements as implying that, but you claim to have never said it explicitly, so now I'm asking you outright.
- awj 16y ago
  Wow, someone needs to calm down. Stop calling people Karl Rove because they aren't seeing the same argument you are. Maybe it's deliberate, maybe it's not, in either case the accusation looks foolish. After using both, the noob experience in Ruby is better than in Clojure. I've had cases where more "advanced" library/package management was easier in Clojure (really, Maven) due to system local vs. project local package lookup. It's entirely possible that says more about my knowledge on the subject than anything else.
  - jshen 16y ago
    If someone accuses me of spreading FUD, while they are intentionally cherry picking at best, then I'm going to respond. It's my nature to respond to personal attacks against me. Oddly you don't find him foolish for the FUD comment, just me for responding to it.

by gcv 16y ago

jshen 16y ago

me: "It assumes the lib is in a maven rep" you: "Gems assumes that the gem is available in a Gem repository. I see no practical difference." Hm, I can't figure you out. Your statement is missing the point. I don't know if you see that point and are cherry picking on purpose or if you don't know both ecosystems. I've done a lot of ruby, a lot of java, and a fair amount of clojure. I frequently run into very common java libs that are not in a maven repo. It's a common occurrence. I can't think of any significant ruby lib that isn't in a gem repo. The two situations are not equivalent. "Nowhere in any post did I say that Clojure the language is as easy as Ruby." Again, this is literally correct, but I feel you've implied it. You're like the Karl Rove of comp sci. The original comment was complaining that the clojure noob experience appeared painful. You then said that the java classpath was no worse than gem_path. This is both wrong (the need for class loaders is one example of why, and my highlighting of the ease of use of gems is another), but it's also clearly implying that using libs in clojure is as easy for a noob as it is in ruby land. You can claim that you weren't implying that, but if that's the case then your reply was meaningless. Again, this is Karl Rove style hair splitting on your part. Let me be clear then. The noob experience in ruby is much better than in clojure. Do you disagree? I've taken your statements as implying that, but you claim to have never said it explicitly, so now I'm asking you outright.

awj 16y ago
Wow, someone needs to calm down. Stop calling people Karl Rove because they aren't seeing the same argument you are. Maybe it's deliberate, maybe it's not, in either case the accusation looks foolish. After using both, the noob experience in Ruby is better than in Clojure. I've had cases where more "advanced" library/package management was easier in Clojure (really, Maven) due to system local vs. project local package lookup. It's entirely possible that says more about my knowledge on the subject than anything else.
- jshen 16y ago
  If someone accuses me of spreading FUD, while they are intentionally cherry picking at best, then I'm going to respond. It's my nature to respond to personal attacks against me. Oddly you don't find him foolish for the FUD comment, just me for responding to it.