6 ms·

Looking at the article seems more like a 0.7 version, not 0.1. Also, sometimes it's important to make a release and patch it later

denzil_correa 9y ago
> sometimes it's important to make a release and patch it later Yeah, the trick is to know when these "sometimes" are. For example, the "move fast break things" rule was applied for India's biometric unique ID card which resulted in people climbing trees to authenticate their cards to get their daily food [0], not allowing access to power/education/daily benefits [1] or transferring benefits to someone else due to errors and fighting to get your daily wages because of "system errors" [2]. Life is not software. There are some releases which you cannot patch. [0] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/need-internet-to-buy-pds-rations-go-climb-a-tree/articleshow/57437975.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/need-internet-to-bu... [1] https://scroll.in/article/834418/by-making-aadhaar-mandatory-delhis-government-schools-are-shutting-their-doors-to-migrant-children https://scroll.in/article/834418/by-making-aadhaar-mandatory... [2] https://scroll.in/article/833487/aadhaar-trouble-how-a-womans-wages-under-mgnrega-were-transferred-to-someone-elses-account https://scroll.in/article/833487/aadhaar-trouble-how-a-woman...
- ocean3 9y ago
  There would be odd cases it's not like everyone is climbing trees.
  - denzil_correa 9y ago
    I'm happy that everyone isn't climbing trees. But casually dismissing "odd cases" where people who live hand to mouth are starving and excluded from society due to "software errors" is extreme apathy. Like I said, life is not software.
    - sfifs 9y ago
      consider that they actually have the opportunity to get the benefit today. I remember times not too long back where all of it disappeared in corruption.
      - denzil_correa 9y ago
        Consider that some other people are not getting their benefits today. Earlier, some people were not getting benefits; now some others aren't getting it. The reasons have changed - the situation remains.
        Retric 9y ago
        Numbers matter. If you go from 95% to 99% that's massive progress. So saying someone or some people is meaningless.
        denzil_correa 9y ago
        > If you go from 95% to 99% that's massive progress. I haven't seen any number that suggests so.
        _jgdh 9y ago
        Very rarely is there any effort in India to collect statistics. We don't know how effective welfare programs were pre-Aadhaar and we won't know post-Aadhaar either. All we'll get from either side of the political divide is rhetoric.
        srean 9y ago
        Not disbelieving you, but would you have a citation documenting the progress ? Or were you making the point that if (hypothetically) it moved the needle from 95 to 99 that would be progress. Its not clear which one you meant.
        9y ago
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    It made getting a SIM a 5 minute process with no documents needed. And I'm sure it works perfectly millions of times per day and maybe once in a year some guy has to climb a tree. Unfortunately people love criticizing anything new.
    - keganunderwood 9y ago
      Ask why it took so much documentation to get a Sim before. Before you say "Pakistan", think about it for a second. Don't fall for the security theater. I am not opposed to tax reform but I think we are not addressing the root problem here.
      - denzil_correa 9y ago
        Also, to say that I will forego privacy to get a SIM for 5 minutes is quite myopic. I mean you can get your SIM card in 1 minute by using an embedded chip inside your body. It doesn't mean we should do it.
    - _nedR 9y ago
      It works great for reliance too. All your browsing habits are now linked to your Aadhar, and can be freely sold to pretty much anyone and shared with government since i have never heard of any real privacy protection laws in India.
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  Scroll.in is not a valid news source. Also, consider the scenario before UID. The food and money wasn't even reaching the correct people. The guy who climbed a tree would probably have gotten kicked around by a bunch of babus and still not got his due. There are problems with every new tech, but if you criticize everything it just makes no sense. Give credit where credit is due. As far as I am concerned, release first, patch later worked wonderfully for UID, and it will probably be similar for GST.
  - denzil_correa 9y ago
    > Scroll.in is not a valid news source. Of course, the classic ad hominem fallacy. > The food and money wasn't even reaching the correct people. The guy who climbed a tree would probably have gotten kicked around by a bunch of babus and still not got his due. There are problems with every new tech, but if you criticize everything it just makes no sense. Give credit where credit is due. This right here is exactly the problem. Trying to find out a tech solution to a problem which is not caused by technology. > As far as I am concerned, release first, patch later worked wonderfully for UID, and it will probably be similar for GST. Easy to say that when your life doesn't depend on it.
    - benmarks 9y ago
      >> Scroll.in is not a valid news source. > Of course, the classic ad hominem fallacy. That's not ad hominem.
      - denzil_correa 9y ago
        The commentator discarded the data presented by Scroll.in because s/he feels that Scroll.in is not a valid source. Classic ad hominem, in which the rebuttal was made by pointing to the name of the source - not the contents of it.
        peteretep 9y ago
        Discarding an argument due to the source is ad hominem, discarding data presented by an unreliable source is not.
- sfifs 9y ago
  I think you might not have a context of living in India. Before Aadhar, these benefits would disappear due to corruption even before reaching the needy while with Aadhar, millions of people have suddenly got bank accounts and get direct Benefits transfer from the government. The other context you might miss is that in general, the top rung of the civil service cadre is generally fairly competent (they're recruited from extremely competitive examinations, and in general not promoted from below). It's on them to generally take decisions on ground when intent and process don't match in things like GST rollout. I'm fairly certain they'll try to do their best to avoid adverse headlines.
  - denzil_correa 9y ago
    > I think you might not have a context of living in India. Curious - What would make you think so? > Before Aadhar, these benefits would disappear due to corruption even before reaching the needy while with Aadhar, millions of people have suddenly got bank accounts and get direct Benefits transfer from the government. You are mixing up many things here. Bank accounts have got nothing to do with Aadhar. Bank accounts don't mean much when you do not have meaningful access. There is a digital and banking divide in India which the person who has Internet access find it difficult to understand. Once you read RBI's Financial Inclusion report you'd understand why. Benefits via Aadhar have been grossly overstated - there has been a recent filing in the court regarding this. > I'm fairly certain they'll try to do their best to avoid adverse headlines. I'm fairly certain given the responses by people who control Aadhar - this wouldn't be addressed. Heck, Aadhar is passed as a "Finance Bill" when it clearly is not.
    - noisy_boy 9y ago
      > Bank accounts don't mean much when you do not have meaningful access. For decades people have been saying that the money from grants/subsidies/schemes for poor vanishes between the government and the recipient due to the multiple "middlemen" involved and cutting that out is the way to solve it. Now that is also not the acceptable solution? Then what is the solution that falls under the category of "meaningful access"? > There is a digital and banking divide in India which the person who has Internet access find it difficult to understand. Yes there is a digital divide but what does having bank accounts got to do with it? Computer illiterate people have been going to banks for decades. > Benefits via Aadhar have been grossly overstated - there has been a recent filing in the court regarding this The idea of Aadhar is to have an identifier like a social security number. It is not a unique idea and Aadhar is not the only way to do it. But the idea itself has merits - especially for financial transactions. So many of transactions in India have been hidden from the taxman because there was lack of the necessary setup to link/consolidate flow of money to a person/business. Aadhar + increased digitisation and reduction in (mainly high value) cash transactions makes tax evasion more difficult. If this idea doesn't have merit then what is your proposal? These are things that are being done to address decades long problems and obviously that won't be perfect. If you have suggestions for improvements/alternative solutions, then feel free to list them. All I'm seeing is criticism without any suggestions.
- logicuce 9y ago
  With so many people in a country, you will always find interesting anecdotes. The problem is, you can't wait for everybody to get ready to make a move. By that logic, India should not invest in ISRO when there are still villages without electricity.
tvanantwerp 9y ago
"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program." MVPs in government policy don't really work as in software. Things move slow, patches come late or never. Bugs form constituencies that lobby for the bug. With policy, you really do need to try your best to get it right the first time.

denzil_correa 9y ago

> sometimes it's important to make a release and patch it later Yeah, the trick is to know when these "sometimes" are. For example, the "move fast break things" rule was applied for India's biometric unique ID card which resulted in people climbing trees to authenticate their cards to get their daily food [0], not allowing access to power/education/daily benefits [1] or transferring benefits to someone else due to errors and fighting to get your daily wages because of "system errors" [2]. Life is not software. There are some releases which you cannot patch. [0] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/need-internet-to-buy-pds-rations-go-climb-a-tree/articleshow/57437975.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/need-internet-to-bu... [1] https://scroll.in/article/834418/by-making-aadhaar-mandatory-delhis-government-schools-are-shutting-their-doors-to-migrant-children https://scroll.in/article/834418/by-making-aadhaar-mandatory... [2] https://scroll.in/article/833487/aadhaar-trouble-how-a-womans-wages-under-mgnrega-were-transferred-to-someone-elses-account https://scroll.in/article/833487/aadhaar-trouble-how-a-woman...

ocean3 9y ago
There would be odd cases it's not like everyone is climbing trees.
- denzil_correa 9y ago
  I'm happy that everyone isn't climbing trees. But casually dismissing "odd cases" where people who live hand to mouth are starving and excluded from society due to "software errors" is extreme apathy. Like I said, life is not software.
  - sfifs 9y ago
    consider that they actually have the opportunity to get the benefit today. I remember times not too long back where all of it disappeared in corruption.
    - denzil_correa 9y ago
      Consider that some other people are not getting their benefits today. Earlier, some people were not getting benefits; now some others aren't getting it. The reasons have changed - the situation remains.
      - Retric 9y ago
        Numbers matter. If you go from 95% to 99% that's massive progress. So saying someone or some people is meaningless.
        denzil_correa 9y ago
        > If you go from 95% to 99% that's massive progress. I haven't seen any number that suggests so.
        _jgdh 9y ago
        Very rarely is there any effort in India to collect statistics. We don't know how effective welfare programs were pre-Aadhaar and we won't know post-Aadhaar either. All we'll get from either side of the political divide is rhetoric.
        srean 9y ago
        Not disbelieving you, but would you have a citation documenting the progress ? Or were you making the point that if (hypothetically) it moved the needle from 95 to 99 that would be progress. Its not clear which one you meant.
        9y ago
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  It made getting a SIM a 5 minute process with no documents needed. And I'm sure it works perfectly millions of times per day and maybe once in a year some guy has to climb a tree. Unfortunately people love criticizing anything new.
  - keganunderwood 9y ago
    Ask why it took so much documentation to get a Sim before. Before you say "Pakistan", think about it for a second. Don't fall for the security theater. I am not opposed to tax reform but I think we are not addressing the root problem here.
    - denzil_correa 9y ago
      Also, to say that I will forego privacy to get a SIM for 5 minutes is quite myopic. I mean you can get your SIM card in 1 minute by using an embedded chip inside your body. It doesn't mean we should do it.
  - _nedR 9y ago
    It works great for reliance too. All your browsing habits are now linked to your Aadhar, and can be freely sold to pretty much anyone and shared with government since i have never heard of any real privacy protection laws in India.
dingo_bat 9y ago
Scroll.in is not a valid news source. Also, consider the scenario before UID. The food and money wasn't even reaching the correct people. The guy who climbed a tree would probably have gotten kicked around by a bunch of babus and still not got his due. There are problems with every new tech, but if you criticize everything it just makes no sense. Give credit where credit is due. As far as I am concerned, release first, patch later worked wonderfully for UID, and it will probably be similar for GST.
- denzil_correa 9y ago
  > Scroll.in is not a valid news source. Of course, the classic ad hominem fallacy. > The food and money wasn't even reaching the correct people. The guy who climbed a tree would probably have gotten kicked around by a bunch of babus and still not got his due. There are problems with every new tech, but if you criticize everything it just makes no sense. Give credit where credit is due. This right here is exactly the problem. Trying to find out a tech solution to a problem which is not caused by technology. > As far as I am concerned, release first, patch later worked wonderfully for UID, and it will probably be similar for GST. Easy to say that when your life doesn't depend on it.
  - benmarks 9y ago
    >> Scroll.in is not a valid news source. > Of course, the classic ad hominem fallacy. That's not ad hominem.
    - denzil_correa 9y ago
      The commentator discarded the data presented by Scroll.in because s/he feels that Scroll.in is not a valid source. Classic ad hominem, in which the rebuttal was made by pointing to the name of the source - not the contents of it.
      - peteretep 9y ago
        Discarding an argument due to the source is ad hominem, discarding data presented by an unreliable source is not.
sfifs 9y ago
I think you might not have a context of living in India. Before Aadhar, these benefits would disappear due to corruption even before reaching the needy while with Aadhar, millions of people have suddenly got bank accounts and get direct Benefits transfer from the government. The other context you might miss is that in general, the top rung of the civil service cadre is generally fairly competent (they're recruited from extremely competitive examinations, and in general not promoted from below). It's on them to generally take decisions on ground when intent and process don't match in things like GST rollout. I'm fairly certain they'll try to do their best to avoid adverse headlines.
- denzil_correa 9y ago
  > I think you might not have a context of living in India. Curious - What would make you think so? > Before Aadhar, these benefits would disappear due to corruption even before reaching the needy while with Aadhar, millions of people have suddenly got bank accounts and get direct Benefits transfer from the government. You are mixing up many things here. Bank accounts have got nothing to do with Aadhar. Bank accounts don't mean much when you do not have meaningful access. There is a digital and banking divide in India which the person who has Internet access find it difficult to understand. Once you read RBI's Financial Inclusion report you'd understand why. Benefits via Aadhar have been grossly overstated - there has been a recent filing in the court regarding this. > I'm fairly certain they'll try to do their best to avoid adverse headlines. I'm fairly certain given the responses by people who control Aadhar - this wouldn't be addressed. Heck, Aadhar is passed as a "Finance Bill" when it clearly is not.
  - noisy_boy 9y ago
    > Bank accounts don't mean much when you do not have meaningful access. For decades people have been saying that the money from grants/subsidies/schemes for poor vanishes between the government and the recipient due to the multiple "middlemen" involved and cutting that out is the way to solve it. Now that is also not the acceptable solution? Then what is the solution that falls under the category of "meaningful access"? > There is a digital and banking divide in India which the person who has Internet access find it difficult to understand. Yes there is a digital divide but what does having bank accounts got to do with it? Computer illiterate people have been going to banks for decades. > Benefits via Aadhar have been grossly overstated - there has been a recent filing in the court regarding this The idea of Aadhar is to have an identifier like a social security number. It is not a unique idea and Aadhar is not the only way to do it. But the idea itself has merits - especially for financial transactions. So many of transactions in India have been hidden from the taxman because there was lack of the necessary setup to link/consolidate flow of money to a person/business. Aadhar + increased digitisation and reduction in (mainly high value) cash transactions makes tax evasion more difficult. If this idea doesn't have merit then what is your proposal? These are things that are being done to address decades long problems and obviously that won't be perfect. If you have suggestions for improvements/alternative solutions, then feel free to list them. All I'm seeing is criticism without any suggestions.
logicuce 9y ago
With so many people in a country, you will always find interesting anecdotes. The problem is, you can't wait for everybody to get ready to make a move. By that logic, India should not invest in ISRO when there are still villages without electricity.

tvanantwerp 9y ago

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program." MVPs in government policy don't really work as in software. Things move slow, patches come late or never. Bugs form constituencies that lobby for the bug. With policy, you really do need to try your best to get it right the first time.