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Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about an

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest? Or is this just not OK at all?

cbsmith 9y ago
> You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest? Or is this just not OK at all? Yes, there are plenty of manners to express it, just like at any company. That said, there are a lot of ways to express it that are just making someone's work life terrible.
spamizbad 9y ago
I think asking coworkers out is a huge no-no. If the only people in your orbit you feel you can connect with that way are at work, that's a sign your personal life needs some development. However, let's say you have a robust personal life, and you just have this absolutely amazing co-worker, who totally is not your subordinate, and ideally you don't even work directly with, and you want to ask them out... again.. I discourage it.... but: Ask them out someplace public outside of work. If they say no, that means no, and just drop it. If you hear "I don't know, I don't really like to date coworkers" that's also a no - don't push the issue. If they say "I don't think that's a good idea" - also a no. If they say "Eh....." or laugh or whatever, it's a no, and just drop it. Be aware a no could make things really awkward for you two, and it may even piss off your co-worker who perhaps viewed you as this great work friend but now thinks things are weird. It can hurt them in other ways: they may also blame themselves for not being more into you, and question if they lead you on. So if you get rejected, just say "Hey that's cool. It was a long-shot, I understand."
- HappyTypist 9y ago
  That really depends. At my current startup there are three "<Company> couples".
  - thehardsphere 9y ago
    Let's see how long that lasts after the company is done being a startup.
- mrmondo 9y ago
  'Asking out co-workers is a huge no-no' - to me this feels almost anti-humanist to the point where business is truly more important than our own lives, our being, our existence and our own free will. There is a massive difference between asking out co-workers and sexual harassment.
  - spamizbad 9y ago
    As a humanist, I disagree. This is my reasoning: Unless the feelings are mutual, asking someone out at work can have negative consequences for the person you're asking, even if your intentions were good. You can't control their feelings, but you can control your actions. Also, believe it or not, your romantic options far outstrip your employment options. Asking people out at work just seems easier but it's quite complicated.
    - nv-vn 9y ago
      >Unless the feelings are mutual That's the whole point of asking someone out -- to find out whether the feelings are mutual.
      - mrmondo 9y ago
        Yes, that's part of my point - that's why it's called /asking/, a world where people are not free to ask - I can only imagine would result in a world where people take, and that - I think we've all whitnessed at times.
jrs95 9y ago
I can't really think of any good ways to do it. The good news is that on a software engineer's salary if you're going to do a lot of drinking alone you can at least buy the good stuff.
- hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
  How about "Would you be interested in going on a date some time?" And if the answer is "No thanks" the response to that can be "OK, I understand." Have we all become so engrossed with our smartphones 24/7 we've forgotten how to be face-to-face direct with other actual humans?
  - jrs95 9y ago
    I've seen someone get fired for doing that. And it was really just that.
aortega 9y ago
>Or is this just not OK at all? You are asking single 18-30 year old who spend most of their waking hours at work, to not make any advance to the only females they probably see in the week. Good luck with trying to fight nature.
- geofft 9y ago
  If this is really true (and I find this rather insulting, as an 18-to-30-year-old male), I'd argue that it's a good reason to diversify hiring beyond 18-to-30-year-old straight single males who have no life outside of work.
- rburhum 9y ago
  sorry dude, but that is not an acceptable answer. We live in a society - with moral and legal structures of what is acceptable. During my the life of this startup and the previous one I have gotten f'ed over royally by a small amount of individuals where they infuriated me incredibly. "nature" would have made me punch them in the face - but that is incredibly unacceptable behavior in a society or work environment. You have to be rational and understand what is OK and what is not like an adult.
  - deepGem 9y ago
    Completely agree with this sentiment. If we all start acting out of our 'natural will', the world will just go bonkers.
  - Zarath 9y ago
    I think most normal/adult people don't want to live in a world where you can't ask out your coworker.
    - geofft 9y ago
      What target population are you basing this on? I would expect that the overwhelming majority of normal/adult women in tech want to live in exactly that world, and I certainly want to live in a world where roughly 50% of people in tech are women. So it only takes a few men to agree to make it the majority.
deepGem 9y ago
I think there are many polite ways of expressing interest, just like you would express interest in any other social setting. I don't think that's inappropriate at all - for example to politely ask out for a coffee, obviously not at the workplace, but somewhere outside. However, in the light of recent activities, I would be quite cautious of any such moves, inherently. The last thing you want is for your actions to be misinterpreted.
- Zarath 9y ago
  Nobody reasonable is going to misinterpret a request for coffee as sexual harassment unless you are socially inept. "Hey, do you want to get coffee sometime?" "Oh, no thanks" "Ok, cool. No problem" Proceed to move on with your life.
  - deepGem 9y ago
    Absolutely, reasonable is the key word here.
    - Zarath 9y ago
      Right, and hopefully there exists one reasonable person in the chain of person -> manager -> HR
WisNorCan 9y ago
Here is an idea for a start-up. Go to the site. Enter the email of your interest at work. They receive an email saying "someone is interested in you at work". They come to the site and enter the emails of anyone at work that they are interested in [1]. If there is a match -> reveal. If not -> email the others at work that "someone is interested in you at work." [1] Also, please let them opt out of any more messages.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ryanSrich 9y ago
I'd advise to never interact with co-workers beyond day to day work interactions. It's just not worth the risk in a society hell-bent on being offended and convicting others of wrong-think. I'm not speaking about actions that are objectively illegal.
- fatbird 9y ago
  Get off your cross, we need to the wood. Lots of people, including in the tech industry, manage to interact with potential romantic partners both romantically and professionally, without triggering lawsuits or tearful Medium apologies. They do it by being mature, considerate, and respectful, and accepting of any outcome, without consequence. If you see the gross behaviour of Sacco et al and think "OMG I'm next!" then that's on you, not the prevailing culture.
stfp 9y ago
One reason it's not OK, at least in tech, is that women are so hugely under-represented. If a male employee not in a position of hierarchical power innocently expresses his interest to a single female coworker in the entire course of his career, is he evil? Is it harassment? Probably not... But from their female coworker's perspective, that's enough to create a pretty steady stream of random attention. I think even that best case "only once" scenario creates a sort of crowd-sourced harassment baseline, on top of which you have to add repeat offenders, ones in a position of hierarchical or effective power, those who deal badly with rejection, the fact that the same thing happens in the street, the subway etc...
- politician 9y ago
  This crowd-sourced harassment issue needs more attention. Offering guidance to men without acknowledging the cumlative effect of these random interactions is an oversight. Due to the statistical imbalances of men and women in various workplaces, a slightly better rule than "ask once, and be polite if they say no" might* be "roll d20, on 20 ask once..." *just a strawman, this isn't actually a good solution; nor are prediction markets, lotteries, drawing straws, competitions of fitness
- throwaway_quux 9y ago
  > One reason it's not OK, at least in tech, is that women are so hugely under-represented. How are women hugely under-represented? Quick look at data. Google tech: 80% male, 20% female. [0] CS bachelor degrees 2014: 77% male, 23% female. [1] CS bachelor degrees 2014: 82% male, 18% female. [1] https://www.google.com/diversity/ https://www.google.com/diversity/ [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2015/01/27/women-falling-behind-in-stem-bachelors-degrees/?utm_term=.b859c7758b8b https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2015/01/27/wo... [1]
fatbird 9y ago
Of course there is: "Hey, I'm interested in you. Would you like to go out on a date sometime?" If they say yes, great, plan a date. If they say no, respond with "Ok, that's cool." Then continue to act the same way towards them you did before. There's a lot of moaning here about how any interaction with a potential partner is an arrest waiting to happen, but the underlying sentiment to that is that everyone else is a vengeful harpy waiting to crucify you. It's an endless nice-guy support group meeting. When you read the articles about Mcclure and Sacco and others, though, you see common things: they're hitting on women coming to them for professional consideration, which necessarily involves a power imbalance; and their requests aren't to go on a date, they're "let's fuck" (i.e., they're inappropriate in most circumstances). You wouldn't ask a girl you met through mutual friends to just go to bed, you'd say "let's get dinner and drinks". But the creep behaviour here is creep behaviour almost everywhere, with an added dose of "I can make or break your career, so choose your answer carefully."
hibikir 9y ago
There are very specific definitions of sexual harassment. Asking a coworker out once when neither of you is in the other's chain of command isn't anywhere near that. If you believe that the word no means 'try again tomorrow', feel like part of asking out is to mention that there will be negative consequences for saying no, or work-related advantages for saying yes, and ignore others when they tell you your behavior is making them uncomfortable, then you are going in the road towards harassment. Let's be realistic about harassment: While seeing something like this triggers fear that suddenly innocent behavior will lead to harassment calls, in practice, your typical male engineer will get away with habitual misbehavior: An employer will only get involved if the behavior at least comes close to qualify as harassment and is well documented. One has to be quite clueless to get anywhere near that level accidentally. We can be afraid, but that doesn't make the fear well founded. The cases that we see in the media involve systemic, repeated misbehavior from people in situations of power, not a random IC that asks a woman engineer out politely when she isn't interested. Asking your coworkers out is fine. A good antidote to the fears is to just listen to women talk about what they deal with. There's plenty of articles out there, and heck, even tweet storms form well known women engineers, explaining the kind of shitty behavior they are exposed to every day. It will show you how there's an abyss between what you think is OK and what they have to put up with.

cbsmith 9y ago

> You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest? Or is this just not OK at all? Yes, there are plenty of manners to express it, just like at any company. That said, there are a lot of ways to express it that are just making someone's work life terrible.

spamizbad 9y ago

I think asking coworkers out is a huge no-no. If the only people in your orbit you feel you can connect with that way are at work, that's a sign your personal life needs some development. However, let's say you have a robust personal life, and you just have this absolutely amazing co-worker, who totally is not your subordinate, and ideally you don't even work directly with, and you want to ask them out... again.. I discourage it.... but: Ask them out someplace public outside of work. If they say no, that means no, and just drop it. If you hear "I don't know, I don't really like to date coworkers" that's also a no - don't push the issue. If they say "I don't think that's a good idea" - also a no. If they say "Eh....." or laugh or whatever, it's a no, and just drop it. Be aware a no could make things really awkward for you two, and it may even piss off your co-worker who perhaps viewed you as this great work friend but now thinks things are weird. It can hurt them in other ways: they may also blame themselves for not being more into you, and question if they lead you on. So if you get rejected, just say "Hey that's cool. It was a long-shot, I understand."

HappyTypist 9y ago
That really depends. At my current startup there are three "<Company> couples".
- thehardsphere 9y ago
  Let's see how long that lasts after the company is done being a startup.
mrmondo 9y ago
'Asking out co-workers is a huge no-no' - to me this feels almost anti-humanist to the point where business is truly more important than our own lives, our being, our existence and our own free will. There is a massive difference between asking out co-workers and sexual harassment.
- spamizbad 9y ago
  As a humanist, I disagree. This is my reasoning: Unless the feelings are mutual, asking someone out at work can have negative consequences for the person you're asking, even if your intentions were good. You can't control their feelings, but you can control your actions. Also, believe it or not, your romantic options far outstrip your employment options. Asking people out at work just seems easier but it's quite complicated.
  - nv-vn 9y ago
    >Unless the feelings are mutual That's the whole point of asking someone out -- to find out whether the feelings are mutual.
    - mrmondo 9y ago
      Yes, that's part of my point - that's why it's called /asking/, a world where people are not free to ask - I can only imagine would result in a world where people take, and that - I think we've all whitnessed at times.

jrs95 9y ago

I can't really think of any good ways to do it. The good news is that on a software engineer's salary if you're going to do a lot of drinking alone you can at least buy the good stuff.

hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
How about "Would you be interested in going on a date some time?" And if the answer is "No thanks" the response to that can be "OK, I understand." Have we all become so engrossed with our smartphones 24/7 we've forgotten how to be face-to-face direct with other actual humans?
- jrs95 9y ago
  I've seen someone get fired for doing that. And it was really just that.

aortega 9y ago

>Or is this just not OK at all? You are asking single 18-30 year old who spend most of their waking hours at work, to not make any advance to the only females they probably see in the week. Good luck with trying to fight nature.

geofft 9y ago
If this is really true (and I find this rather insulting, as an 18-to-30-year-old male), I'd argue that it's a good reason to diversify hiring beyond 18-to-30-year-old straight single males who have no life outside of work.
rburhum 9y ago
sorry dude, but that is not an acceptable answer. We live in a society - with moral and legal structures of what is acceptable. During my the life of this startup and the previous one I have gotten f'ed over royally by a small amount of individuals where they infuriated me incredibly. "nature" would have made me punch them in the face - but that is incredibly unacceptable behavior in a society or work environment. You have to be rational and understand what is OK and what is not like an adult.
- deepGem 9y ago
  Completely agree with this sentiment. If we all start acting out of our 'natural will', the world will just go bonkers.
- Zarath 9y ago
  I think most normal/adult people don't want to live in a world where you can't ask out your coworker.
  - geofft 9y ago
    What target population are you basing this on? I would expect that the overwhelming majority of normal/adult women in tech want to live in exactly that world, and I certainly want to live in a world where roughly 50% of people in tech are women. So it only takes a few men to agree to make it the majority.

deepGem 9y ago

I think there are many polite ways of expressing interest, just like you would express interest in any other social setting. I don't think that's inappropriate at all - for example to politely ask out for a coffee, obviously not at the workplace, but somewhere outside. However, in the light of recent activities, I would be quite cautious of any such moves, inherently. The last thing you want is for your actions to be misinterpreted.

Zarath 9y ago
Nobody reasonable is going to misinterpret a request for coffee as sexual harassment unless you are socially inept. "Hey, do you want to get coffee sometime?" "Oh, no thanks" "Ok, cool. No problem" Proceed to move on with your life.
- deepGem 9y ago
  Absolutely, reasonable is the key word here.
  - Zarath 9y ago
    Right, and hopefully there exists one reasonable person in the chain of person -> manager -> HR

WisNorCan 9y ago

Here is an idea for a start-up. Go to the site. Enter the email of your interest at work. They receive an email saying "someone is interested in you at work". They come to the site and enter the emails of anyone at work that they are interested in [1]. If there is a match -> reveal. If not -> email the others at work that "someone is interested in you at work." [1] Also, please let them opt out of any more messages.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ryanSrich 9y ago

I'd advise to never interact with co-workers beyond day to day work interactions. It's just not worth the risk in a society hell-bent on being offended and convicting others of wrong-think. I'm not speaking about actions that are objectively illegal.

fatbird 9y ago
Get off your cross, we need to the wood. Lots of people, including in the tech industry, manage to interact with potential romantic partners both romantically and professionally, without triggering lawsuits or tearful Medium apologies. They do it by being mature, considerate, and respectful, and accepting of any outcome, without consequence. If you see the gross behaviour of Sacco et al and think "OMG I'm next!" then that's on you, not the prevailing culture.

stfp 9y ago

One reason it's not OK, at least in tech, is that women are so hugely under-represented. If a male employee not in a position of hierarchical power innocently expresses his interest to a single female coworker in the entire course of his career, is he evil? Is it harassment? Probably not... But from their female coworker's perspective, that's enough to create a pretty steady stream of random attention. I think even that best case "only once" scenario creates a sort of crowd-sourced harassment baseline, on top of which you have to add repeat offenders, ones in a position of hierarchical or effective power, those who deal badly with rejection, the fact that the same thing happens in the street, the subway etc...

politician 9y ago
This crowd-sourced harassment issue needs more attention. Offering guidance to men without acknowledging the cumlative effect of these random interactions is an oversight. Due to the statistical imbalances of men and women in various workplaces, a slightly better rule than "ask once, and be polite if they say no" might* be "roll d20, on 20 ask once..." *just a strawman, this isn't actually a good solution; nor are prediction markets, lotteries, drawing straws, competitions of fitness
throwaway_quux 9y ago
> One reason it's not OK, at least in tech, is that women are so hugely under-represented. How are women hugely under-represented? Quick look at data. Google tech: 80% male, 20% female. [0] CS bachelor degrees 2014: 77% male, 23% female. [1] CS bachelor degrees 2014: 82% male, 18% female. [1] https://www.google.com/diversity/ https://www.google.com/diversity/ [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2015/01/27/women-falling-behind-in-stem-bachelors-degrees/?utm_term=.b859c7758b8b https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2015/01/27/wo... [1]

fatbird 9y ago

Of course there is: "Hey, I'm interested in you. Would you like to go out on a date sometime?" If they say yes, great, plan a date. If they say no, respond with "Ok, that's cool." Then continue to act the same way towards them you did before. There's a lot of moaning here about how any interaction with a potential partner is an arrest waiting to happen, but the underlying sentiment to that is that everyone else is a vengeful harpy waiting to crucify you. It's an endless nice-guy support group meeting. When you read the articles about Mcclure and Sacco and others, though, you see common things: they're hitting on women coming to them for professional consideration, which necessarily involves a power imbalance; and their requests aren't to go on a date, they're "let's fuck" (i.e., they're inappropriate in most circumstances). You wouldn't ask a girl you met through mutual friends to just go to bed, you'd say "let's get dinner and drinks". But the creep behaviour here is creep behaviour almost everywhere, with an added dose of "I can make or break your career, so choose your answer carefully."

hibikir 9y ago

There are very specific definitions of sexual harassment. Asking a coworker out once when neither of you is in the other's chain of command isn't anywhere near that. If you believe that the word no means 'try again tomorrow', feel like part of asking out is to mention that there will be negative consequences for saying no, or work-related advantages for saying yes, and ignore others when they tell you your behavior is making them uncomfortable, then you are going in the road towards harassment. Let's be realistic about harassment: While seeing something like this triggers fear that suddenly innocent behavior will lead to harassment calls, in practice, your typical male engineer will get away with habitual misbehavior: An employer will only get involved if the behavior at least comes close to qualify as harassment and is well documented. One has to be quite clueless to get anywhere near that level accidentally. We can be afraid, but that doesn't make the fear well founded. The cases that we see in the media involve systemic, repeated misbehavior from people in situations of power, not a random IC that asks a woman engineer out politely when she isn't interested. Asking your coworkers out is fine. A good antidote to the fears is to just listen to women talk about what they deal with. There's plenty of articles out there, and heck, even tweet storms form well known women engineers, explaining the kind of shitty behavior they are exposed to every day. It will show you how there's an abyss between what you think is OK and what they have to put up with.