5 ms·

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual har

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature of it.

learc83 9y ago
When there is a big power difference for one. If you have control over someone's livelihood, propositioning them is inappropriate.
- spydum 9y ago
  Just curious doesn't this further stratify the power classes? I can't make advances on someone who earns less than me now?
  - Rusky 9y ago
    Just earning more isn't the problem. Having control over their career is.
  - saghm 9y ago
    It has nothing to do with salaries; if you're in a position to make decisions about someone's future (hiring them, firing them, etc.), it's not appropriate.
throwaway055 9y ago
The word "unwanted" is troubling, because it means the alleged victim gets to personally decide whether the act was illegal/punishable or not, based entirely on their own subjective feelings. So I guess, if you're good looking, it's legal, and maybe you end up marrying and having children (as people often do in these situations). If you're not good looking, it's a violation and you should be fired/prosecuted. This definitely isn't a clean or fair way to write or enforce laws or standards for conduct and punishment in the workplace. It might still be necessary and it might be the best we can do, but it's definitely all a big gray area, not just in its interpretation, but in its literal definition ("unwanted").
- chasing 9y ago
  This is the wrong answer.
  - throwaway055 9y ago
    I wasn't asked a question and didn't provide an answer (or even a proposal), but I understand that having a rational discussion on this topic is difficult or impossible for most people, and I'm sorry if I offended you.
    - chasing 9y ago
      > Honest question... > I wasn't asked a question... Anyway: You didn't offend me at all. I should've been more clear: It doesn't have to do with looks. That's the wrong way to look at this. And as far as subjective feelings being relevant to whether a crime is committed or not: It's not that unusual. If you threaten to kill me, for example, then my feelings are critical to deciding whether a crime has been committed. Law isn't software. To a certain degree, it's gray by its very nature. Anyway, I'm not sure how I feel about the criminality of a lot of this behavior, but a lot of it definitely feels destructive and immoral.
      - throwaway055 9y ago
        > It doesn't have to do with looks. That's the wrong way to look at this. Looks play a very large role in determining attraction, which in turn plays a large role in determining whether an advance is or isn't "wanted." The rules as they're currently written therefor apply very unevenly and unfairly. The more attractive you are, the wider your scope of acceptable behavior is. The less attractive you are, the narrower your scope of acceptable behavior is. If Dave McClure was someone more Sarah Kunst's type, we might be reading an article about their pending nuptials. Instead, we're reading ones about how Dave McClure is a creep who should be added to the sex offender registry. That's a pretty wide range of possible outcomes for the same behavior.
        9y ago
chasing 9y ago
You should ask your female friends! In all seriousness. Maybe my basic advice is: Don't "proposition" people. Forget the phrase "hit on." Don't lead with your dick. Meet people. Learn about them. Establish rapport. Maybe something happens, maybe not. When people are legitimately excited by one another, romance can follow. But be respectful enough to not cause harm. Don't interfere with their work life. Don't accidentally or purposefully threaten their careers or companies. Do no harm. Maybe you miss out on a romantic encounter or two, but you'll be a better person. You might actually get some really cool friendships out of it! And when actual sparks fly, you'll know it and it'll be great.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
jakevoytko 9y ago
IANAL, etc. Some common themes of sexual harassment training I've taken: - Boorish behavior crosses the line the first time. Assume this follows the "would you want it published in the New York Times?" rule of thumb. - For more ambiguous cases (like asking someone on a date,) it's only OK if you don't actually know if the advance is welcome. Once you get an answer, and it's "no," then anything else is an unwelcome advance. I actually saw someone fired because of this, so don't take it lightly. - Sexual harassment laws exist to protect people against those with positions of power. One training instructor said, "the reason the laws are designed protect your reports against you, and not the other way around, is because you can fire them."
0x8BADF00D 9y ago
> Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? It's fairly obvious and self-evident. I consider myself to be on the autism spectrum, and even I know when a female friend is not interested in a romantic or sexual relationship. Like the legal test for obscenity: I know it when I see it.

learc83 9y ago

When there is a big power difference for one. If you have control over someone's livelihood, propositioning them is inappropriate.

spydum 9y ago
Just curious doesn't this further stratify the power classes? I can't make advances on someone who earns less than me now?
- Rusky 9y ago
  Just earning more isn't the problem. Having control over their career is.
- saghm 9y ago
  It has nothing to do with salaries; if you're in a position to make decisions about someone's future (hiring them, firing them, etc.), it's not appropriate.

throwaway055 9y ago

The word "unwanted" is troubling, because it means the alleged victim gets to personally decide whether the act was illegal/punishable or not, based entirely on their own subjective feelings. So I guess, if you're good looking, it's legal, and maybe you end up marrying and having children (as people often do in these situations). If you're not good looking, it's a violation and you should be fired/prosecuted. This definitely isn't a clean or fair way to write or enforce laws or standards for conduct and punishment in the workplace. It might still be necessary and it might be the best we can do, but it's definitely all a big gray area, not just in its interpretation, but in its literal definition ("unwanted").

chasing 9y ago
This is the wrong answer.
- throwaway055 9y ago
  I wasn't asked a question and didn't provide an answer (or even a proposal), but I understand that having a rational discussion on this topic is difficult or impossible for most people, and I'm sorry if I offended you.
  - chasing 9y ago
    > Honest question... > I wasn't asked a question... Anyway: You didn't offend me at all. I should've been more clear: It doesn't have to do with looks. That's the wrong way to look at this. And as far as subjective feelings being relevant to whether a crime is committed or not: It's not that unusual. If you threaten to kill me, for example, then my feelings are critical to deciding whether a crime has been committed. Law isn't software. To a certain degree, it's gray by its very nature. Anyway, I'm not sure how I feel about the criminality of a lot of this behavior, but a lot of it definitely feels destructive and immoral.
    - throwaway055 9y ago
      > It doesn't have to do with looks. That's the wrong way to look at this. Looks play a very large role in determining attraction, which in turn plays a large role in determining whether an advance is or isn't "wanted." The rules as they're currently written therefor apply very unevenly and unfairly. The more attractive you are, the wider your scope of acceptable behavior is. The less attractive you are, the narrower your scope of acceptable behavior is. If Dave McClure was someone more Sarah Kunst's type, we might be reading an article about their pending nuptials. Instead, we're reading ones about how Dave McClure is a creep who should be added to the sex offender registry. That's a pretty wide range of possible outcomes for the same behavior.
      - 9y ago

chasing 9y ago

You should ask your female friends! In all seriousness. Maybe my basic advice is: Don't "proposition" people. Forget the phrase "hit on." Don't lead with your dick. Meet people. Learn about them. Establish rapport. Maybe something happens, maybe not. When people are legitimately excited by one another, romance can follow. But be respectful enough to not cause harm. Don't interfere with their work life. Don't accidentally or purposefully threaten their careers or companies. Do no harm. Maybe you miss out on a romantic encounter or two, but you'll be a better person. You might actually get some really cool friendships out of it! And when actual sparks fly, you'll know it and it'll be great.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

jakevoytko 9y ago

IANAL, etc. Some common themes of sexual harassment training I've taken: - Boorish behavior crosses the line the first time. Assume this follows the "would you want it published in the New York Times?" rule of thumb. - For more ambiguous cases (like asking someone on a date,) it's only OK if you don't actually know if the advance is welcome. Once you get an answer, and it's "no," then anything else is an unwelcome advance. I actually saw someone fired because of this, so don't take it lightly. - Sexual harassment laws exist to protect people against those with positions of power. One training instructor said, "the reason the laws are designed protect your reports against you, and not the other way around, is because you can fire them."

0x8BADF00D 9y ago

> Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? It's fairly obvious and self-evident. I consider myself to be on the autism spectrum, and even I know when a female friend is not interested in a romantic or sexual relationship. Like the legal test for obscenity: I know it when I see it.