6 ms·

I think it's because he wanted to pepper in details like "It was over drinks and I thought it was social", aka actually defend his actions while renouncing them

I think it's because he wanted to pepper in details like "It was over drinks and I thought it was social", aka actually defend his actions while renouncing them on the surface. The "upcoming discussions" with 500 associates reads like he's looking to get back onboard.

sergiotapia 9y ago
I immediately thought odd it was to meet like that over drinks with a group of people. That's never not been social for me. So I'm glad he painted a picture.
- caseysoftware 9y ago
  There are dozens, hundreds of events ranging from meetups to conference parties to pitch events to just about everything else that often involve drinks or going out for drinks immediately before/after with other participants. Whether that's "social" or a "professional" setting is hotly debated but regardless, it's the norm. Throw in social media and it is very easy (still not appropriate) to blur lines.
  - taurath 9y ago
    If you have a job where you are working 12 hour days and weekends, your job is your life. I am actually curious when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be - clearly the second someone brings up professional stuff, it should be out the door, but the veil of that can be breached with a simple "what have you been working on lately"
    - noahth 9y ago
      If you're working 12 hour days and having trouble with your social life, the problem is _not_ that it's not OK to hit on women in a professional setting. The problem is that you're working too much.
      - theWatcher37 9y ago
        Stop bringing gender in to this. You can ask someone out during an after-hours social event without it being wrong. What's wrong is retaliation based on those things happening.
        noahth 9y ago
        If you think I'm the one who brought gender into this, you're either ignorant to the structural realities of our industry, or you're willfully being obtuse. If it's the former, let me be the first to tell you that men have most of the power and it's no accident that in the story this post reacts to, it's the men in power committing the abuse and not the other way around. Not to say that women can't be inappropriate at work or whatever, but if you're looking to promote equality, "both sides do bad things" is not the right way to do it in this case.
        tnone 9y ago
        The structural realities of our industry are that men are the majority at all echelons. Men have most of the power and men are most of the subjects. Ignoring half of the equation to paint women as a unique victim class is disingenuous, and ironically, it is a power move. Topping from the bottom. HR taking the company's side... A superior leveraging their position to extract concessions rather than engage a person on equal ground... These are universal problems. Twisting everything into a gender issue because of sexuality involves the automatic assumption that a woman's sexual virtue is something special and any other abuse of power is just not as big a deal. A very gender essentialist and conservative position. As an actual leftie, it should make me sad, but tbh it amuses me to no end in its absurdity. In the name of progressive politics, all sorts of traditional views are being promoted. Men should be chivalrous, women need protection, public shaming is good, morality must be enforced by a clerical class, with everyone else kissing the ring in acquiescence. Bizarre. As if politics are far more built-in than we want to admit, and freedom and tolerance can become labels for the exact opposite.
        TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
    - criddell 9y ago
      > when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be If you are in a position of power over another person, I would say there isn't an appropriate time. The number of hours you work isn't really relevant. Put it this way: when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date?
      - tanderson92 9y ago
        > when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date? A student generally or one of his students? There is a difference. And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon.
        JadeNB 9y ago
        > And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon. There are a lot of things that are not uncommon, but are still totally inappropriate.
        resf 9y ago
        What's inappropriate is for a third party to decide when and when not two adults can have a private relationship.
        noobermin 9y ago
        Wait a second, if there is no power inbalance, how is it inappropriate? Are we merely arguing about social mores without any reason?
        JadeNB 9y ago
        > > And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon. > There are a lot of things that are not uncommon, but are still totally inappropriate. Sorry! I was responding late at night, and, even though I quoted it, I totally missed tanderson92 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14680337 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14680337) 's caveat "that he/she didn't have power over", which, of course, totally changes the ethics. (It still doesn't seem persuasive to me to argue the ethics of a behaviour in terms of what used to be common, since it is still true that a lot of awful things used to be, and still are, common; but my comment was mostly based on a misinterpretation.)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
grecy 9y ago
> "It was over drinks and I thought it was social" It is horrifying that world leaders and public figures use this kind of excuse, which is supposed to somehow give a pass, and then we see it trickle down to the man on the street. Really, the public figures should be prosecuted and made an example of, so that is the example for the average man. Anything less is unacceptable.
- mc32 9y ago
  I think his use of "I fucked up" while on the one hand it makes it seem like he's acknowledging the seriousness of the incidents, on the other hand it signals that he still has an issue with social convention and knowing what is appropriate and not. One does not go up to someone you owe deference and include the word "fuck" specially given the kinds of allegations and confirmation, in your apology. Understand social convention and understand respect. It's like he's apologizing to one of his "bros".
  - tormeh 9y ago
    I looked him up on YouTube. This is simply how he communicates. I guess he started out thinking it would make him sound decisive and effective and now it's internalized. The reason he does it is that he's insecure, like a man speaking with a lower tone than is really his own.
- theWatcher37 9y ago
  What's more horrifying, that people are human and make mistakes, or that if you're "important" what would normally be one-off mistakes forgotten and buried become career-defining events thanks to the collective shaming capacity of the internet.
  - grecy 9y ago
    >people are human and make mistakes Our legal system is not forgiving of people that make mistakes. "I accidentally fell asleep at the wheel and killed someone" = manslaughter = prison. What this person did is very wrong, and everyone who does it should be punished, regardless of their obscurity/fame.
TylerE 9y ago
Classic non-apology apology. "I'm sorry you were offended".
- theWatcher37 9y ago
  Classic self righteous morality police. "He didn't apologize good enough!"
  - TylerE 9y ago
    Self righteous? I didn't make any value judgement. Just called it a bullshit apology.
    - 77pt77 9y ago
      I think that qualifies as a valuable judgement
    - jhall1468 9y ago
      So.... literal a judgement not based on objective data, but a subjective interpretation of the meaning behind his words. Totally not a value judgement.
    - chris_wot 9y ago
      To classical something as a "bullshit apology" is to cast a value judgement!
    - mongol 9y ago
      A value judgement if I ever heard one..
- hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
  This is bullshit. This is a lead paragraph: I made advances towards multiple women in work-related situations, where it was clearly inappropriate. I put people in compromising and inappropriate situations, and I selfishly took advantage of those situations where I should have known better. My behavior was inexcusable and wrong. There isn't any equivocating there. Dave acknowledged what he did was wrong, and took responsibility. I'm not saying he's some sort of great guy for apologizing, and he deserves to face the consequences of his actions. I am arguing that if people sincerely acknowledge their mistakes, and take steps to make amends, demands of "you're apologizing too much/not enough/wrong" are just vengeance and are not actually going to fix the problem in the long run.

sergiotapia 9y ago

I immediately thought odd it was to meet like that over drinks with a group of people. That's never not been social for me. So I'm glad he painted a picture.

caseysoftware 9y ago
There are dozens, hundreds of events ranging from meetups to conference parties to pitch events to just about everything else that often involve drinks or going out for drinks immediately before/after with other participants. Whether that's "social" or a "professional" setting is hotly debated but regardless, it's the norm. Throw in social media and it is very easy (still not appropriate) to blur lines.
- taurath 9y ago
  If you have a job where you are working 12 hour days and weekends, your job is your life. I am actually curious when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be - clearly the second someone brings up professional stuff, it should be out the door, but the veil of that can be breached with a simple "what have you been working on lately"
  - noahth 9y ago
    If you're working 12 hour days and having trouble with your social life, the problem is _not_ that it's not OK to hit on women in a professional setting. The problem is that you're working too much.
    - theWatcher37 9y ago
      Stop bringing gender in to this. You can ask someone out during an after-hours social event without it being wrong. What's wrong is retaliation based on those things happening.
      - noahth 9y ago
        If you think I'm the one who brought gender into this, you're either ignorant to the structural realities of our industry, or you're willfully being obtuse. If it's the former, let me be the first to tell you that men have most of the power and it's no accident that in the story this post reacts to, it's the men in power committing the abuse and not the other way around. Not to say that women can't be inappropriate at work or whatever, but if you're looking to promote equality, "both sides do bad things" is not the right way to do it in this case.
        tnone 9y ago
        The structural realities of our industry are that men are the majority at all echelons. Men have most of the power and men are most of the subjects. Ignoring half of the equation to paint women as a unique victim class is disingenuous, and ironically, it is a power move. Topping from the bottom. HR taking the company's side... A superior leveraging their position to extract concessions rather than engage a person on equal ground... These are universal problems. Twisting everything into a gender issue because of sexuality involves the automatic assumption that a woman's sexual virtue is something special and any other abuse of power is just not as big a deal. A very gender essentialist and conservative position. As an actual leftie, it should make me sad, but tbh it amuses me to no end in its absurdity. In the name of progressive politics, all sorts of traditional views are being promoted. Men should be chivalrous, women need protection, public shaming is good, morality must be enforced by a clerical class, with everyone else kissing the ring in acquiescence. Bizarre. As if politics are far more built-in than we want to admit, and freedom and tolerance can become labels for the exact opposite.
        TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  - criddell 9y ago
    > when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be If you are in a position of power over another person, I would say there isn't an appropriate time. The number of hours you work isn't really relevant. Put it this way: when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date?
    - tanderson92 9y ago
      > when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date? A student generally or one of his students? There is a difference. And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon.
      - JadeNB 9y ago
        > And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon. There are a lot of things that are not uncommon, but are still totally inappropriate.
        resf 9y ago
        What's inappropriate is for a third party to decide when and when not two adults can have a private relationship.
        noobermin 9y ago
        Wait a second, if there is no power inbalance, how is it inappropriate? Are we merely arguing about social mores without any reason?
        JadeNB 9y ago
        > > And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon. > There are a lot of things that are not uncommon, but are still totally inappropriate. Sorry! I was responding late at night, and, even though I quoted it, I totally missed tanderson92 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14680337 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14680337) 's caveat "that he/she didn't have power over", which, of course, totally changes the ethics. (It still doesn't seem persuasive to me to argue the ethics of a behaviour in terms of what used to be common, since it is still true that a lot of awful things used to be, and still are, common; but my comment was mostly based on a misinterpretation.)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

grecy 9y ago

> "It was over drinks and I thought it was social" It is horrifying that world leaders and public figures use this kind of excuse, which is supposed to somehow give a pass, and then we see it trickle down to the man on the street. Really, the public figures should be prosecuted and made an example of, so that is the example for the average man. Anything less is unacceptable.

mc32 9y ago
I think his use of "I fucked up" while on the one hand it makes it seem like he's acknowledging the seriousness of the incidents, on the other hand it signals that he still has an issue with social convention and knowing what is appropriate and not. One does not go up to someone you owe deference and include the word "fuck" specially given the kinds of allegations and confirmation, in your apology. Understand social convention and understand respect. It's like he's apologizing to one of his "bros".
- tormeh 9y ago
  I looked him up on YouTube. This is simply how he communicates. I guess he started out thinking it would make him sound decisive and effective and now it's internalized. The reason he does it is that he's insecure, like a man speaking with a lower tone than is really his own.
theWatcher37 9y ago
What's more horrifying, that people are human and make mistakes, or that if you're "important" what would normally be one-off mistakes forgotten and buried become career-defining events thanks to the collective shaming capacity of the internet.
- grecy 9y ago
  >people are human and make mistakes Our legal system is not forgiving of people that make mistakes. "I accidentally fell asleep at the wheel and killed someone" = manslaughter = prison. What this person did is very wrong, and everyone who does it should be punished, regardless of their obscurity/fame.

TylerE 9y ago

Classic non-apology apology. "I'm sorry you were offended".

theWatcher37 9y ago
Classic self righteous morality police. "He didn't apologize good enough!"
- TylerE 9y ago
  Self righteous? I didn't make any value judgement. Just called it a bullshit apology.
  - 77pt77 9y ago
    I think that qualifies as a valuable judgement
  - jhall1468 9y ago
    So.... literal a judgement not based on objective data, but a subjective interpretation of the meaning behind his words. Totally not a value judgement.
  - chris_wot 9y ago
    To classical something as a "bullshit apology" is to cast a value judgement!
  - mongol 9y ago
    A value judgement if I ever heard one..
hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
This is bullshit. This is a lead paragraph: I made advances towards multiple women in work-related situations, where it was clearly inappropriate. I put people in compromising and inappropriate situations, and I selfishly took advantage of those situations where I should have known better. My behavior was inexcusable and wrong. There isn't any equivocating there. Dave acknowledged what he did was wrong, and took responsibility. I'm not saying he's some sort of great guy for apologizing, and he deserves to face the consequences of his actions. I am arguing that if people sincerely acknowledge their mistakes, and take steps to make amends, demands of "you're apologizing too much/not enough/wrong" are just vengeance and are not actually going to fix the problem in the long run.