6 ms·

Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with cowo

Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.

aortega 9y ago
> Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed. Yes but you have to understand that we humans have a incredible high drive to reproduce, and many successful couples forms in the work environment. I have a child with a coworker. Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environments but there are a big difference between approaching someone and sexually harassment. Modern women specially millennials tend to see any kind of approach (specially from unattractive males) as harassment and this is not the case, not even legally.
- smt88 9y ago
  > Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environment The power imbalance and lack of non-work relationship are key. McClure had no personal relationship with this woman. They weren't friends, and they hadn't met in a non-professional setting. Furthermore, he's in a position to make decisions about her future. In that situation, it's inappropriate to make the first move, because the other person will feel pressured to reciprocate, even if she doesn't want to. This is very similar to the way professors aren't allowed to have sexual relationships with students in their classes, but students can have sexual relationships with each other.
- aluhut 9y ago
  Dangerous ground. I would expect contra in form of "mansplaining" or "justification of harassment". I came to the conclusion that the topic has become too toxic to be discussed seriously. Especially based on a actual case. I just hope this electrified field will return to a base where everybody can talk seriously about it. With the aim being a solution that is appropriate to what we are as humans not as man or woman (or all those other genders...).
  - Frondo 9y ago
    I would suggest you take steps to strengthen your relationships with the women in your life, so that you can discuss these things with them and they'll know you're genuine in asking about what is appropriate, etc. I can think of several women I would have zero problem discussing this stuff with, just because they know I'm not out to stir shit up or play devil's advocate. There's trust there to begin with, so there's openness, etc.
    - aluhut 9y ago
      I've found this topic to be toxic only on the internet. Never had this issue in real life. Maybe because I'm not from the US. However, reading that you had no problem discussing this stuff because you would not "stir shit up or play devils advocate", I'd say you had no discussion at all in the first place.
- chasing 9y ago
  > ...there are a big difference between approaching someone and sexually harassment. 100% this. I absolutely believe people can form legitimate and wonderful relationships with coworkers -- even subordinates. Having a kid is awesome and it's great that you found the right person. But. There's a clear and obvious difference between building a relationship with someone (even a purely sexual one!) and trying to exploit a power imbalance for free sex. The clearest part of that difference is that building a relationship involves respecting that other person, not just viewing them as an object to be consumed. I suspect you have a tremendous amount of respect for your partner -- and that respect was probably part of the reason you hit it off in the first place. People who have power need to be especially alert to this. With great power comes great responsibility -- and all that jazz.
- johnny22 9y ago
  "Modern women specially millennials tend to see any kind of approach (specially from unattractive males) as harassment" You can't just say something like this without backing it up. Anecdotes don't count.
liquidise 9y ago
Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature of it.
- learc83 9y ago
  When there is a big power difference for one. If you have control over someone's livelihood, propositioning them is inappropriate.
  - spydum 9y ago
    Just curious doesn't this further stratify the power classes? I can't make advances on someone who earns less than me now?
    - Rusky 9y ago
      Just earning more isn't the problem. Having control over their career is.
    - saghm 9y ago
      It has nothing to do with salaries; if you're in a position to make decisions about someone's future (hiring them, firing them, etc.), it's not appropriate.
- throwaway055 9y ago
  The word "unwanted" is troubling, because it means the alleged victim gets to personally decide whether the act was illegal/punishable or not, based entirely on their own subjective feelings. So I guess, if you're good looking, it's legal, and maybe you end up marrying and having children (as people often do in these situations). If you're not good looking, it's a violation and you should be fired/prosecuted. This definitely isn't a clean or fair way to write or enforce laws or standards for conduct and punishment in the workplace. It might still be necessary and it might be the best we can do, but it's definitely all a big gray area, not just in its interpretation, but in its literal definition ("unwanted").

Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.

aortega 9y ago

> Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed. Yes but you have to understand that we humans have a incredible high drive to reproduce, and many successful couples forms in the work environment. I have a child with a coworker. Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environments but there are a big difference between approaching someone and sexually harassment. Modern women specially millennials tend to see any kind of approach (specially from unattractive males) as harassment and this is not the case, not even legally.

smt88 9y ago
> Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environment The power imbalance and lack of non-work relationship are key. McClure had no personal relationship with this woman. They weren't friends, and they hadn't met in a non-professional setting. Furthermore, he's in a position to make decisions about her future. In that situation, it's inappropriate to make the first move, because the other person will feel pressured to reciprocate, even if she doesn't want to. This is very similar to the way professors aren't allowed to have sexual relationships with students in their classes, but students can have sexual relationships with each other.
aluhut 9y ago
Dangerous ground. I would expect contra in form of "mansplaining" or "justification of harassment". I came to the conclusion that the topic has become too toxic to be discussed seriously. Especially based on a actual case. I just hope this electrified field will return to a base where everybody can talk seriously about it. With the aim being a solution that is appropriate to what we are as humans not as man or woman (or all those other genders...).
- Frondo 9y ago
  I would suggest you take steps to strengthen your relationships with the women in your life, so that you can discuss these things with them and they'll know you're genuine in asking about what is appropriate, etc. I can think of several women I would have zero problem discussing this stuff with, just because they know I'm not out to stir shit up or play devil's advocate. There's trust there to begin with, so there's openness, etc.
  - aluhut 9y ago
    I've found this topic to be toxic only on the internet. Never had this issue in real life. Maybe because I'm not from the US. However, reading that you had no problem discussing this stuff because you would not "stir shit up or play devils advocate", I'd say you had no discussion at all in the first place.
chasing 9y ago
> ...there are a big difference between approaching someone and sexually harassment. 100% this. I absolutely believe people can form legitimate and wonderful relationships with coworkers -- even subordinates. Having a kid is awesome and it's great that you found the right person. But. There's a clear and obvious difference between building a relationship with someone (even a purely sexual one!) and trying to exploit a power imbalance for free sex. The clearest part of that difference is that building a relationship involves respecting that other person, not just viewing them as an object to be consumed. I suspect you have a tremendous amount of respect for your partner -- and that respect was probably part of the reason you hit it off in the first place. People who have power need to be especially alert to this. With great power comes great responsibility -- and all that jazz.
johnny22 9y ago
"Modern women specially millennials tend to see any kind of approach (specially from unattractive males) as harassment" You can't just say something like this without backing it up. Anecdotes don't count.

liquidise 9y ago

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature of it.

learc83 9y ago
When there is a big power difference for one. If you have control over someone's livelihood, propositioning them is inappropriate.
- spydum 9y ago
  Just curious doesn't this further stratify the power classes? I can't make advances on someone who earns less than me now?
  - Rusky 9y ago
    Just earning more isn't the problem. Having control over their career is.
  - saghm 9y ago
    It has nothing to do with salaries; if you're in a position to make decisions about someone's future (hiring them, firing them, etc.), it's not appropriate.
throwaway055 9y ago
The word "unwanted" is troubling, because it means the alleged victim gets to personally decide whether the act was illegal/punishable or not, based entirely on their own subjective feelings. So I guess, if you're good looking, it's legal, and maybe you end up marrying and having children (as people often do in these situations). If you're not good looking, it's a violation and you should be fired/prosecuted. This definitely isn't a clean or fair way to write or enforce laws or standards for conduct and punishment in the workplace. It might still be necessary and it might be the best we can do, but it's definitely all a big gray area, not just in its interpretation, but in its literal definition ("unwanted").