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A HUGE percentage of couples meet through work. It's not inherently wrong, or something inherently taboo. (We've all been told not to stick our pens in the co

A HUGE percentage of couples meet through work. It's not inherently wrong, or something inherently taboo. (We've all been told not to stick our pens in the company ink, but... time and time again we also see examples of happily married couples who met on the job... Bill Gates' wife worked for Microsoft, The Obamas met while they were working together, Ryan Reynolds & Blake Lively met on the set of Green Lantern...) So it feels like the message here is, "It's fine when it works, and it's totally not fine when it doesn't work." The only way to know if it's fine is to ask. It's not really something you can make universal rules for. To each their own, right? (I would say a wedding ring means someone is off limits, but affairs happen all the time too.) Point being, it has to be something more than, "It's OK to hit on someone if they are attracted to you." I think hitting on someone is inherently a compliment. But if they say no, and you try again, and they still say no, well probably don't try a third time. This guy is apologizing for being called a creep after hitting on someone once... man, that's rough. You don't know until you try. There needs to be a little more flex here, it can't just come down to, "Anyone who we don't feel attraction to should be fired if they pay us a poorly worded compliment or tell a bad joke." Stalkers, sure... people who try and leverage their position in the company to get laid (with the implication), yeah... but just some guy who tries to clumsily flirt with a girl and can't play it smooth because he's fundamentally not a player and actually likes her... come on, cut that guy some slack.

superplussed 9y ago
Power inbalance man, that's the point.
- dbg31415 9y ago
  There's always power imbalances though. Social, knowledge, financial... can you only hit on people whose looks are on par with your own, and who have the same amount of money you do, and same education, same experience, knowledge, social network... blah blah. Always going to be a power imbalance of some sort between people.
  - aianus 9y ago
    This. If I'm a rich man and I ask a poor woman out, her answer actually might have a much bigger impact on her economic well-being than if I were an employer interviewing her for a job. Does that make it wrong for rich men to ask poor women out?
  - bobbytherobot 9y ago
    I think you are conflating power with advantages. I have advantages over many people, but I have little to no power to punish them.
ceejayoz 9y ago
Much of the issue isn't just "meeting through work", but the power imbalance. Of your examples, only Gates includes this imbalance. I don't know the specifics of their situation, but I'd hope that he recused himself from being directly involved in her performance reviews etc., whereas McClure was explicitly tying his attraction to the hiring decision - "I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you."
- dbg31415 9y ago
  I'd be more worried about the guy who she says no to who keeps coming. Poor judgement... maybe, but who knows what signals he was reading into the situation at the time. He just sounds like a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience with women, and he tried to make a joke and it didn't go well. Now he's gotta read about his failed flirtation attempts in the NYT. That's gotta be rough. If he was overt, or repetitive, or really sleazy... yeah sure, I'm not on his side. But to me this just comes off as a guy who hit on someone who was out of his physical league and she didn't appreciate it (probably also because she didn't get offered a job). I don't think Dave McClure deserves to be crucified over this.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > If he was overt, or repetitive, or really sleazy... yeah sure, I'm not on his side. The apology explicitly states "I made advances towards multiple women in work-related situations, where it was clearly inappropriate."
    - dbg31415 9y ago
      I'd be more worried if he made multiple advances to the same woman after being shot down multiple times by that woman. That's harassment. He's just... well... he seems like a really lonely guy.
      - julianmarq 9y ago
        You might have had a point in your first comment, now you're just defending a guy who won't even defend himself, for some reason.
lubujackson 9y ago
Meeting a coworker (even a boss!) socially, having drinks, escalating into a relationship - no problem. Normally-socialized people can do this because they can make these decisions over time, being careful to give the other person outs along the way. McClure was basically honking his horn while driving his Tesla down the street, hollering "nice tits!" At best, that is anti-social, rude and offputting. But to do it while someone is in the midst of applying for a job can't be seen as anything other than an abuse of power to get what you want. How would you feel if McClure gay propositioned YOU while trying to apply for a job? You want to work at this VC fund but before you can get your foot in the door he says you are a super hot stud and and he wants to take you home. For a man, it would be awkward as hell but easy to deflect. And you would probably rather not work there (this is where it is bad for business, not just McClure's penis). As am attractive woman, this shit happens ALL THE TIME. Please stop defending it as "normal animal behavior" or whatever. Using power to get laid is fine if someone is attracted to that. But using power OVER someone is coersion. Anyone over the age of 13 should be able to figure this out.
- dbg31415 9y ago
  > How would you feel if McClure gay propositioned YOU while trying to apply for a job? You want to work at this VC fund but before you can get your foot in the door he says you are a super hot stud and and he wants to take you home. For a man, it would be awkward as hell but easy to deflect. And you would probably rather not work there (this is where it is bad for business, not just McClure's penis). When I was in my 20s I had an older female boss hit on me all the time. It made me not want to work with her. And as soon as I could move projects I did. I didn't worry about it past that. It never occurred to me that I should be upset or hurt but her behavior. I just thought she was pathetic. I've had a gay boss, and would joke with him about how many blowjobs I would need to give to get out of a deadline... point being, maybe it wasn't "appropriate" but we had good rapport. You can laugh about stupid stuff. It's when people get all worked up and start wanting to tell others how to live that I think the real problem kicks in. > As am attractive woman, this shit happens ALL THE TIME. Please stop defending it as "normal animal behavior" or whatever. Using power to get laid is fine if someone is attracted to that. But using power OVER someone is coersion. Anyone over the age of 13 should be able to figure this out. I haven't read much about this story past what I saw on HN, but it just made McClure out to be a guy who was super awkward around women. Not in an aggressive predatory way, more just a sad geeky sort of "I haven't gotten laid in a long long time..." sort of way. There's always a power dynamic... some people can offer a job, or more social connections, or physical attraction, or money... it's not just that the guy had power over the girl -- clearly if he's feeling compelled to hit on the girl she had power over him too.
chasing 9y ago
I, uh, can't believe that otherwise smart people can't understand the difference between building a romantic relationship and sexual harassment.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

superplussed 9y ago

Power inbalance man, that's the point.

dbg31415 9y ago
There's always power imbalances though. Social, knowledge, financial... can you only hit on people whose looks are on par with your own, and who have the same amount of money you do, and same education, same experience, knowledge, social network... blah blah. Always going to be a power imbalance of some sort between people.
- aianus 9y ago
  This. If I'm a rich man and I ask a poor woman out, her answer actually might have a much bigger impact on her economic well-being than if I were an employer interviewing her for a job. Does that make it wrong for rich men to ask poor women out?
- bobbytherobot 9y ago
  I think you are conflating power with advantages. I have advantages over many people, but I have little to no power to punish them.

ceejayoz 9y ago

Much of the issue isn't just "meeting through work", but the power imbalance. Of your examples, only Gates includes this imbalance. I don't know the specifics of their situation, but I'd hope that he recused himself from being directly involved in her performance reviews etc., whereas McClure was explicitly tying his attraction to the hiring decision - "I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you."

dbg31415 9y ago
I'd be more worried about the guy who she says no to who keeps coming. Poor judgement... maybe, but who knows what signals he was reading into the situation at the time. He just sounds like a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience with women, and he tried to make a joke and it didn't go well. Now he's gotta read about his failed flirtation attempts in the NYT. That's gotta be rough. If he was overt, or repetitive, or really sleazy... yeah sure, I'm not on his side. But to me this just comes off as a guy who hit on someone who was out of his physical league and she didn't appreciate it (probably also because she didn't get offered a job). I don't think Dave McClure deserves to be crucified over this.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > If he was overt, or repetitive, or really sleazy... yeah sure, I'm not on his side. The apology explicitly states "I made advances towards multiple women in work-related situations, where it was clearly inappropriate."
  - dbg31415 9y ago
    I'd be more worried if he made multiple advances to the same woman after being shot down multiple times by that woman. That's harassment. He's just... well... he seems like a really lonely guy.
    - julianmarq 9y ago
      You might have had a point in your first comment, now you're just defending a guy who won't even defend himself, for some reason.

lubujackson 9y ago

Meeting a coworker (even a boss!) socially, having drinks, escalating into a relationship - no problem. Normally-socialized people can do this because they can make these decisions over time, being careful to give the other person outs along the way. McClure was basically honking his horn while driving his Tesla down the street, hollering "nice tits!" At best, that is anti-social, rude and offputting. But to do it while someone is in the midst of applying for a job can't be seen as anything other than an abuse of power to get what you want. How would you feel if McClure gay propositioned YOU while trying to apply for a job? You want to work at this VC fund but before you can get your foot in the door he says you are a super hot stud and and he wants to take you home. For a man, it would be awkward as hell but easy to deflect. And you would probably rather not work there (this is where it is bad for business, not just McClure's penis). As am attractive woman, this shit happens ALL THE TIME. Please stop defending it as "normal animal behavior" or whatever. Using power to get laid is fine if someone is attracted to that. But using power OVER someone is coersion. Anyone over the age of 13 should be able to figure this out.

dbg31415 9y ago
> How would you feel if McClure gay propositioned YOU while trying to apply for a job? You want to work at this VC fund but before you can get your foot in the door he says you are a super hot stud and and he wants to take you home. For a man, it would be awkward as hell but easy to deflect. And you would probably rather not work there (this is where it is bad for business, not just McClure's penis). When I was in my 20s I had an older female boss hit on me all the time. It made me not want to work with her. And as soon as I could move projects I did. I didn't worry about it past that. It never occurred to me that I should be upset or hurt but her behavior. I just thought she was pathetic. I've had a gay boss, and would joke with him about how many blowjobs I would need to give to get out of a deadline... point being, maybe it wasn't "appropriate" but we had good rapport. You can laugh about stupid stuff. It's when people get all worked up and start wanting to tell others how to live that I think the real problem kicks in. > As am attractive woman, this shit happens ALL THE TIME. Please stop defending it as "normal animal behavior" or whatever. Using power to get laid is fine if someone is attracted to that. But using power OVER someone is coersion. Anyone over the age of 13 should be able to figure this out. I haven't read much about this story past what I saw on HN, but it just made McClure out to be a guy who was super awkward around women. Not in an aggressive predatory way, more just a sad geeky sort of "I haven't gotten laid in a long long time..." sort of way. There's always a power dynamic... some people can offer a job, or more social connections, or physical attraction, or money... it's not just that the guy had power over the girl -- clearly if he's feeling compelled to hit on the girl she had power over him too.

chasing 9y ago

I, uh, can't believe that otherwise smart people can't understand the difference between building a romantic relationship and sexual harassment.

deleted 9y ago
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