8 ms·

Real life Ministry of Truth. Not only is this another strike at freedom of expression in Germany, but it's an attack on the privacy of Germans. The idea that a

Real life Ministry of Truth. Not only is this another strike at freedom of expression in Germany, but it's an attack on the privacy of Germans. The idea that arresting people for "hate speech" online is going to make your country any better or safer is laughable. It just means people making jokes will get arrested because one of their jokes offends a few people [1]. Here's a great video by a German who is concerned about the expanded surveillance state and limitations on free speech: https://youtu.be/WFCKTvGU8oU https://youtu.be/WFCKTvGU8oU Here's another video about German hate speech crime and statistics that I found insightful: https://youtu.be/kX84h6aKpaU https://youtu.be/kX84h6aKpaU 1. https://www.rt.com/uk/342513-dog-nazi-salute-arrested/ https://www.rt.com/uk/342513-dog-nazi-salute-arrested/

FabHK 9y ago
Sorry, but no. Forcing companies that disregard the law to pay fines (not 'arresting people') is no strike at freedom of expression in Germany. (Note that your link [1] is about the UK, a different country.) Yes, holocaust denial and Nazi propaganda are prohibited in Germany for historical reasons, but the notion that his severely impedes the freedom of political speech is mistaken. And yes, I've read my John Stuart Mill, and mostly agree with him. As an aside, I'd still rate the level of public discourse in Germany as way above what's happening in many other countries (though it's going downhill, with all the private TV stations and social media, whose goal is not edification and education, but advertisement driven profit and "engagement").
- nyolfen 9y ago
  June 20, 2017 - Germany Raids Homes of 36 People Accused of Hateful Postings Over Social Media https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-accused-of-hateful-postings-over-social-media.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-a...
  - Mithaldu 9y ago
    Given that these types of people literally do incite things like in the following video, i fail to see anything troubling in such police action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmTtCyLvGUg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmTtCyLvGUg
    - nyolfen 9y ago
      this is very lazy reasoning on your part. i was also posting it in response to GP's line: > disregard the law to pay fines (not 'arresting people') you may not treasure your rights enough to protect them even on behalf of people you despise, but you will forgive those of us who do.
      - Mithaldu 9y ago
        Germany actually has these restrictions because it affords its citizens more rights than most countries. And these restrictions exist exactly because rights may only be exercised unless they impinge on the rights of others. And i invite you to read the very first law in the german body of law, that enshrines a right that does not exist in all countries: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0021 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h...
- darawk 9y ago
  Enforcing laws that restrict expression is restricting expression.
- imaginenore 9y ago
  This law will absolutely be used to curb political speech, that's the whole point. And you know it will be applied by the ruling party against anybody whose views they don't like. When you're banning "hate speech" without strictly and narrowly defining what it is, it's a pure censorship instrument with pretty much unlimited reach. I, for instance, think The Bible and The Quran are full of hate speech, but do you think they should be banned in the whole country simply based on my view? What about a Android vs iOS debates? Should we ban every shit-talking conversation on the internet? What about BMW vs Audi? Tabs vs spaces? Chocolate vs vanilla?
  - FabHK 9y ago
    So, first, I'm no expert in this (and defer to rbehrends's excellent comments in this thread). The law seems to have problematic parts, as mentioned in the article: "the statute gives companies incentives to remove content, and it lacks a procedure for users to appeal removals." Yet, the issue is not clear cut. There are legitimate limitations on free speech - the famous "screaming fire in a crowded theatre" thing. So, in Germany (with a history of institutionalised genocide), the lines are drawn a bit differently. The notion that the ruling party will use it against views they don't like seems far fetched, though again, I grant you that it's a slippery slope - Principiis obsta ("resist the beginnings"). But, I object to the notion that freedom of political speech is fundamentally under attack here. [As for the Abrahamic texts, there is case to be made that they ought to be banned, though I grant that that wouldn't help much. As for your "reductio ad absurdum" (tabs/spaces): again, there's unproblematic speech, and there's legitimately prohibited speech, and then there's a grey area, and that's what we're discussing here - where in the grey to draw the line.]
    - olegkikin 9y ago
      It's just amazing that you can talk about banning the religious texts and at the same time claim the speech is not under attack. That's some olympic-level mental gymnastics.
      - FabHK 9y ago
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
0x4f3759df 9y ago
Illustrates that the whole concept of freedom of speech is illogical. What if I agitate and undermine the right to "freedom of speech" itself? For self preservation, the society would need to agree that in this instance speech should be curtailed, and bit by bit it will get eroded.

FabHK 9y ago

Sorry, but no. Forcing companies that disregard the law to pay fines (not 'arresting people') is no strike at freedom of expression in Germany. (Note that your link [1] is about the UK, a different country.) Yes, holocaust denial and Nazi propaganda are prohibited in Germany for historical reasons, but the notion that his severely impedes the freedom of political speech is mistaken. And yes, I've read my John Stuart Mill, and mostly agree with him. As an aside, I'd still rate the level of public discourse in Germany as way above what's happening in many other countries (though it's going downhill, with all the private TV stations and social media, whose goal is not edification and education, but advertisement driven profit and "engagement").

nyolfen 9y ago
June 20, 2017 - Germany Raids Homes of 36 People Accused of Hateful Postings Over Social Media https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-accused-of-hateful-postings-over-social-media.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-a...
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  Given that these types of people literally do incite things like in the following video, i fail to see anything troubling in such police action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmTtCyLvGUg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmTtCyLvGUg
  - nyolfen 9y ago
    this is very lazy reasoning on your part. i was also posting it in response to GP's line: > disregard the law to pay fines (not 'arresting people') you may not treasure your rights enough to protect them even on behalf of people you despise, but you will forgive those of us who do.
    - Mithaldu 9y ago
      Germany actually has these restrictions because it affords its citizens more rights than most countries. And these restrictions exist exactly because rights may only be exercised unless they impinge on the rights of others. And i invite you to read the very first law in the german body of law, that enshrines a right that does not exist in all countries: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0021 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h...
darawk 9y ago
Enforcing laws that restrict expression is restricting expression.
imaginenore 9y ago
This law will absolutely be used to curb political speech, that's the whole point. And you know it will be applied by the ruling party against anybody whose views they don't like. When you're banning "hate speech" without strictly and narrowly defining what it is, it's a pure censorship instrument with pretty much unlimited reach. I, for instance, think The Bible and The Quran are full of hate speech, but do you think they should be banned in the whole country simply based on my view? What about a Android vs iOS debates? Should we ban every shit-talking conversation on the internet? What about BMW vs Audi? Tabs vs spaces? Chocolate vs vanilla?
- FabHK 9y ago
  So, first, I'm no expert in this (and defer to rbehrends's excellent comments in this thread). The law seems to have problematic parts, as mentioned in the article: "the statute gives companies incentives to remove content, and it lacks a procedure for users to appeal removals." Yet, the issue is not clear cut. There are legitimate limitations on free speech - the famous "screaming fire in a crowded theatre" thing. So, in Germany (with a history of institutionalised genocide), the lines are drawn a bit differently. The notion that the ruling party will use it against views they don't like seems far fetched, though again, I grant you that it's a slippery slope - Principiis obsta ("resist the beginnings"). But, I object to the notion that freedom of political speech is fundamentally under attack here. [As for the Abrahamic texts, there is case to be made that they ought to be banned, though I grant that that wouldn't help much. As for your "reductio ad absurdum" (tabs/spaces): again, there's unproblematic speech, and there's legitimately prohibited speech, and then there's a grey area, and that's what we're discussing here - where in the grey to draw the line.]
  - olegkikin 9y ago
    It's just amazing that you can talk about banning the religious texts and at the same time claim the speech is not under attack. That's some olympic-level mental gymnastics.
    - FabHK 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

0x4f3759df 9y ago

Illustrates that the whole concept of freedom of speech is illogical. What if I agitate and undermine the right to "freedom of speech" itself? For self preservation, the society would need to agree that in this instance speech should be curtailed, and bit by bit it will get eroded.