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I've got to wonder, why do coworkers go out for drinks if it's not a social setting? I don't understand the logic of mixing alcohol with colleagues if you're st

I've got to wonder, why do coworkers go out for drinks if it's not a social setting? I don't understand the logic of mixing alcohol with colleagues if you're still under the "workplace" umbrella.

ams6110 9y ago
I don't really understand socializing with co-workers outside of work under any circumstances, but especially with intoxicants involved. This includes company holiday parties, etc. Let work be work, and keep your social life separate. I've seen far more bad than good come out of such things.
- LeoNatan25 9y ago
  People are people. A true friendship can form between coworkers and there is no reason to forcefully undercut such a relationship just because it's "work". People willing to do that are very weird to me, and I am glad no such people work where I work, or have worked in the past.
- kevin_nisbet 9y ago
  Most of my best friends I've met at work, and we socialize often even after changing jobs. I also find it to be a great opportunity to blow off steam with like minded people, about the problems we're encountering in the workplace.
- cylinder 9y ago
  I agree, not a fan of these things. I make friends through jobs, but by planning private hangouts with them...
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  I went to dinner with seven good friends last week and we all met at the same employer. None of us have been coworkers for over five years. We spent about 2.5 hours together laughing and having a blast. Some work environments are genuinely conducive to forming friendships and others are not. I haven't befriended coworkers at every job, but my closest friendships have all been from the workplace since leaving school.
- tarr11 9y ago
  Although the percentage is declining, many relationships still begin at work [1] The real issue is a power imbalance, but this issue also exists in other settings as well. Alcohol inhibits your judgement, but many people can successfully consume alcohol without adverse social consequences. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/08/how-much-life-has-changed-in-one-incredible-chart-about-dating/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/08/how-m...
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    This cut both ways. Power inbalance has the problem that sex is a extremely common strategy for gaining power in human societies. Predators can take any side on the relationship.
    - saghm 9y ago
      All the more reason not to engage (or attempt to initiate) a sexual or romantic relationship with a subordinate or superior.
      - pvaldes 9y ago
        Well, the problem is that then all we would have is a closed caste system, that is a very undesirable situation in itself and much worse.
        thehardsphere 9y ago
        Uh, no. You know it used to be that men and women didn't work together, right? Like, this idea of being able to date at work has only been around for about 50 years or so, while the human race has been around for thousands. Somehow we figured out how to reproduce in the West without a "closed caste system" just fine. You can too, without dating anyone at your job.
        saghm 9y ago
        There are plenty of people of different social classes than you who don't work at the same company as you, so I don't think a social norm saying that you shouldn't ask out maybe a few dozen people you work with is a "closed caste system".
- nvahalik 9y ago
  I met my wife at my job! Been married 8+ years now.
- mc32 9y ago
  The problem with him is his position. In a position where you can hire or fire people you should not be engaging in this kind of adolescent behavior. People, colleagues and equals at work should be able to interact socially, over drinks and even hook up. People are human and sexual attraction is natural. I don't think we should try to pretend it does not exist and that we should remove it from the workplace. What should not happen is people not knowing boundaries or social convention. People should know how to act and should know how not to act -even when drunk. I don't think workplaces should be sterile, asocial places which ignore human predisposition to social interaction.
- collyw 9y ago
  Have a quick google. You will find that 38% of people have dated a coworker. I am pretty sure a fair few of those have turned into lifelong relationships. Personally I would regard that as a good outcome.
blatherard 9y ago
There are many workplace cultures where it is expected of employees to socialize after hours if they want to get ahead. Individuals in those systems are generally following their self-interest.
- LeoNatan25 9y ago
  In most cases that "self-interest" is wanting to be in contact with people you like. Usually, that also helps "getting ahead" in life in general.
infodroid 9y ago
The goal is to get to know your coworkers better, so you can see them as people instead of mere job descriptions. It's still a workplace setting, except that you are discouraged from talking about work. The alcohol is there to cut through the inevitable anxiety that such situations create, not as an excuse to be unprofessional.
- taurath 9y ago
  How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting? What would be the difference? Why wouldn't it be the exact same as water cooler talk?
  - saghm 9y ago
    > How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting? I'm very confused by this question. My view of whether someone is a person is not mitigated by them acting profession.
    - Asooka 9y ago
      If you see them as people, you should be able to interact with them as fully-rounded people, including asking them out (once only, not being a persistent nagging asshole), complimenting their attire, telling them the latest gossip, in short - communicating your feelings, provided the feeling is mutual. Whereas in a professional setting, you aren't a person, you're filling a role and obeying protocol. It's a sliding scale between "professional" and "casual", but generally when you're interacting professionally, you aren't addressing the full person, you're only letting your Senior Frobnicator part discuss frobnicating barbazniks with only the Chief Barbaznik Wrangler part of the person in front of you; whereas in a casual setting you're communicating with all parts of the person.
      - ebcode 9y ago
        This might be the best summing up of the/our schizophrenic attitude towards professionalism (and work) that I've ever read. The words, "in a professional setting, you aren't a person," just nail it. Meanwhile, the corporation itself has the legal status of a person, and can now even claim to hold religious beliefs. Ergo, we could probably fix some of these issues in the valley with a few properly Gorean S Corps.
slg 9y ago
The inappropriateness of McClure actions has no relationship to whether they occurred in a bar over a mixed drink or in an office over a bottled water. The "workplace umbrella", as you put it, follows him wherever he interacts with coworkers due to his position of power over them even if they are interacting in a social setting.
- cperciva 9y ago
  The "workplace umbrella", as you put it, follows him wherever he interacts with coworkers due to his position of power over them Did I miss something here? My understanding from what McClure wrote is that he was interacting with someone who wasn't a co-worker.
  - obstinate 9y ago
    Someone seeking a job that you control can probably be said to be like a coworker for the purposes of analyzing power imbalances.
    - cperciva 9y ago
      So a purely social drink with a non-coworker immediately becomes a workplace event when they ask about the possibility of working at your company? Ok, I can sort of see that... but I hope that situation never arises for me, because there's no way I'd be able to switch from "social" to "work" modes that fast. In any event, I'm not sure that "a job you control" was the case here: It sounds like he (quite rightly) handed that off to someone else and had nothing to do with the hiring decision. It does seem like he should have been clearer to the applicant about not being part of that decision, though.
gadders 9y ago
I met my wife at work drinks, so I'm glad it happens.
chasing 9y ago
Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.
- aortega 9y ago
  > Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed. Yes but you have to understand that we humans have a incredible high drive to reproduce, and many successful couples forms in the work environment. I have a child with a coworker. Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environments but there are a big difference between approaching someone and sexually harassment. Modern women specially millennials tend to see any kind of approach (specially from unattractive males) as harassment and this is not the case, not even legally.
  - smt88 9y ago
    > Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environment The power imbalance and lack of non-work relationship are key. McClure had no personal relationship with this woman. They weren't friends, and they hadn't met in a non-professional setting. Furthermore, he's in a position to make decisions about her future. In that situation, it's inappropriate to make the first move, because the other person will feel pressured to reciprocate, even if she doesn't want to. This is very similar to the way professors aren't allowed to have sexual relationships with students in their classes, but students can have sexual relationships with each other.
  - aluhut 9y ago
    Dangerous ground. I would expect contra in form of "mansplaining" or "justification of harassment". I came to the conclusion that the topic has become too toxic to be discussed seriously. Especially based on a actual case. I just hope this electrified field will return to a base where everybody can talk seriously about it. With the aim being a solution that is appropriate to what we are as humans not as man or woman (or all those other genders...).
jayd16 9y ago
A casual and jovial atmosphere doesn't alleviate you from social consequences.
haltingthoughts 9y ago
Alcohol is an "organizational lubricant". It's consumption allows people to express controversial opinions that may be needed to be expressed with less potential for blowback due to the setting. This same plausible deniability also can enable people to be creeps.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

I've got to wonder, why do coworkers go out for drinks if it's not a social setting? I don't understand the logic of mixing alcohol with colleagues if you're still under the "workplace" umbrella.

ams6110 9y ago

I don't really understand socializing with co-workers outside of work under any circumstances, but especially with intoxicants involved. This includes company holiday parties, etc. Let work be work, and keep your social life separate. I've seen far more bad than good come out of such things.

LeoNatan25 9y ago
People are people. A true friendship can form between coworkers and there is no reason to forcefully undercut such a relationship just because it's "work". People willing to do that are very weird to me, and I am glad no such people work where I work, or have worked in the past.
kevin_nisbet 9y ago
Most of my best friends I've met at work, and we socialize often even after changing jobs. I also find it to be a great opportunity to blow off steam with like minded people, about the problems we're encountering in the workplace.
cylinder 9y ago
I agree, not a fan of these things. I make friends through jobs, but by planning private hangouts with them...
alsetmusic 9y ago
I went to dinner with seven good friends last week and we all met at the same employer. None of us have been coworkers for over five years. We spent about 2.5 hours together laughing and having a blast. Some work environments are genuinely conducive to forming friendships and others are not. I haven't befriended coworkers at every job, but my closest friendships have all been from the workplace since leaving school.
tarr11 9y ago
Although the percentage is declining, many relationships still begin at work [1] The real issue is a power imbalance, but this issue also exists in other settings as well. Alcohol inhibits your judgement, but many people can successfully consume alcohol without adverse social consequences. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/08/how-much-life-has-changed-in-one-incredible-chart-about-dating/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/08/how-m...
- pvaldes 9y ago
  This cut both ways. Power inbalance has the problem that sex is a extremely common strategy for gaining power in human societies. Predators can take any side on the relationship.
  - saghm 9y ago
    All the more reason not to engage (or attempt to initiate) a sexual or romantic relationship with a subordinate or superior.
    - pvaldes 9y ago
      Well, the problem is that then all we would have is a closed caste system, that is a very undesirable situation in itself and much worse.
      - thehardsphere 9y ago
        Uh, no. You know it used to be that men and women didn't work together, right? Like, this idea of being able to date at work has only been around for about 50 years or so, while the human race has been around for thousands. Somehow we figured out how to reproduce in the West without a "closed caste system" just fine. You can too, without dating anyone at your job.
      - saghm 9y ago
        There are plenty of people of different social classes than you who don't work at the same company as you, so I don't think a social norm saying that you shouldn't ask out maybe a few dozen people you work with is a "closed caste system".
nvahalik 9y ago
I met my wife at my job! Been married 8+ years now.
mc32 9y ago
The problem with him is his position. In a position where you can hire or fire people you should not be engaging in this kind of adolescent behavior. People, colleagues and equals at work should be able to interact socially, over drinks and even hook up. People are human and sexual attraction is natural. I don't think we should try to pretend it does not exist and that we should remove it from the workplace. What should not happen is people not knowing boundaries or social convention. People should know how to act and should know how not to act -even when drunk. I don't think workplaces should be sterile, asocial places which ignore human predisposition to social interaction.
collyw 9y ago
Have a quick google. You will find that 38% of people have dated a coworker. I am pretty sure a fair few of those have turned into lifelong relationships. Personally I would regard that as a good outcome.

blatherard 9y ago

There are many workplace cultures where it is expected of employees to socialize after hours if they want to get ahead. Individuals in those systems are generally following their self-interest.

LeoNatan25 9y ago
In most cases that "self-interest" is wanting to be in contact with people you like. Usually, that also helps "getting ahead" in life in general.

infodroid 9y ago

The goal is to get to know your coworkers better, so you can see them as people instead of mere job descriptions. It's still a workplace setting, except that you are discouraged from talking about work. The alcohol is there to cut through the inevitable anxiety that such situations create, not as an excuse to be unprofessional.

taurath 9y ago
How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting? What would be the difference? Why wouldn't it be the exact same as water cooler talk?
- saghm 9y ago
  > How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting? I'm very confused by this question. My view of whether someone is a person is not mitigated by them acting profession.
  - Asooka 9y ago
    If you see them as people, you should be able to interact with them as fully-rounded people, including asking them out (once only, not being a persistent nagging asshole), complimenting their attire, telling them the latest gossip, in short - communicating your feelings, provided the feeling is mutual. Whereas in a professional setting, you aren't a person, you're filling a role and obeying protocol. It's a sliding scale between "professional" and "casual", but generally when you're interacting professionally, you aren't addressing the full person, you're only letting your Senior Frobnicator part discuss frobnicating barbazniks with only the Chief Barbaznik Wrangler part of the person in front of you; whereas in a casual setting you're communicating with all parts of the person.
    - ebcode 9y ago
      This might be the best summing up of the/our schizophrenic attitude towards professionalism (and work) that I've ever read. The words, "in a professional setting, you aren't a person," just nail it. Meanwhile, the corporation itself has the legal status of a person, and can now even claim to hold religious beliefs. Ergo, we could probably fix some of these issues in the valley with a few properly Gorean S Corps.

slg 9y ago

The inappropriateness of McClure actions has no relationship to whether they occurred in a bar over a mixed drink or in an office over a bottled water. The "workplace umbrella", as you put it, follows him wherever he interacts with coworkers due to his position of power over them even if they are interacting in a social setting.

cperciva 9y ago
The "workplace umbrella", as you put it, follows him wherever he interacts with coworkers due to his position of power over them Did I miss something here? My understanding from what McClure wrote is that he was interacting with someone who wasn't a co-worker.
- obstinate 9y ago
  Someone seeking a job that you control can probably be said to be like a coworker for the purposes of analyzing power imbalances.
  - cperciva 9y ago
    So a purely social drink with a non-coworker immediately becomes a workplace event when they ask about the possibility of working at your company? Ok, I can sort of see that... but I hope that situation never arises for me, because there's no way I'd be able to switch from "social" to "work" modes that fast. In any event, I'm not sure that "a job you control" was the case here: It sounds like he (quite rightly) handed that off to someone else and had nothing to do with the hiring decision. It does seem like he should have been clearer to the applicant about not being part of that decision, though.

gadders 9y ago

I met my wife at work drinks, so I'm glad it happens.

chasing 9y ago

Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.

aortega 9y ago
> Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed. Yes but you have to understand that we humans have a incredible high drive to reproduce, and many successful couples forms in the work environment. I have a child with a coworker. Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environments but there are a big difference between approaching someone and sexually harassment. Modern women specially millennials tend to see any kind of approach (specially from unattractive males) as harassment and this is not the case, not even legally.
- smt88 9y ago
  > Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environment The power imbalance and lack of non-work relationship are key. McClure had no personal relationship with this woman. They weren't friends, and they hadn't met in a non-professional setting. Furthermore, he's in a position to make decisions about her future. In that situation, it's inappropriate to make the first move, because the other person will feel pressured to reciprocate, even if she doesn't want to. This is very similar to the way professors aren't allowed to have sexual relationships with students in their classes, but students can have sexual relationships with each other.
- aluhut 9y ago
  Dangerous ground. I would expect contra in form of "mansplaining" or "justification of harassment". I came to the conclusion that the topic has become too toxic to be discussed seriously. Especially based on a actual case. I just hope this electrified field will return to a base where everybody can talk seriously about it. With the aim being a solution that is appropriate to what we are as humans not as man or woman (or all those other genders...).

jayd16 9y ago

A casual and jovial atmosphere doesn't alleviate you from social consequences.

haltingthoughts 9y ago

Alcohol is an "organizational lubricant". It's consumption allows people to express controversial opinions that may be needed to be expressed with less potential for blowback due to the setting. This same plausible deniability also can enable people to be creeps.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]