4 ms·

I don't see the connection between welfare and globalization. Explain?

microcolonel 9y ago
If you have a welfare state then you need borders and immigration control to keep people from exploiting it. If your government relies on labour inefficiency for revenue (as a welfare state does) then globalization will impoverish your government, driving up tax rates; and since this is unsustainable, you must inevitably protect national labour.
- wazoox 9y ago
  Notice that the countries with the largest welfare states in the world (Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway) fare better by far in global indexes of happiness, human development, freedom, democracy, etc.
- prodmerc 9y ago
  By welfare state you mean states with extreme income inequality? Because Europe does pretty well on welfare, because it taxes the rich more. And it has protectionism too, which helps.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  This is a really good point. It's the only argument I've heard against a strong social safety net that makes sense, and I really don't know a good counter. If you have government-provided health care, government-provided university, etc. then you are very likely to _have_ to restrict immigration since there will be people from places that do not offer those things who wish to avail of it. After all, you'd be foolish not to. If every sick American without health insurance could just pop over to Canada to get treated for free it would bankrupt Canada. I am a supporter of single payer health care and vastly reduced tuition (or the elimination of the university's role in modern society, but that's another conversation), but I also like the idea of freedom to travel and open borders, and I've never found a way to square the two. I used to burn with envy when I read that such and such writer or artist moved to Paris from the US like it was no problem at all - how was it possible 100 years ago but not now? France offered fewer protections then, and had less to lose from letting people in.
  - redy 9y ago
    > I am a supporter of single payer health care and vastly reduced tuition (or the elimination of the university's role in modern society, but that's another conversation), but I also like the idea of freedom to travel and open borders, and I've never found a way to square the two. This is deeply misguided. I strongly encourage you to look at the evidence about the impact of immigrants on government's fiscal positions. In both the Germany and the US there is strong evidence that immigrants contribute far more in taxes than the benefits they receive. It's possible to have a discussion about the economic impact on immigration but it requires examination of facts, not cockamie speculation that the government "loses" on every immigrant.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    I think it's only a good argument if, when you weigh your ability to travel like a 18th century writer and the ability of the poorest in society to avoid destitution, you find that they come out close. The best argument in favor of welfare continues to be the Rawlsian veil of ignorance and I'm pretty sure that behind that veil I would pick welfare programs over free travel.
    - CalRobert 9y ago
      Just googled "Rawlsian veil of ignorance" - interesting reading. I hadn't heard the term before. Thanks for exposing me to it.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    I live in Canada, and here's how my last couple months with the healthcare system has gone (anecdote and first world problem alert): About two months ago, it was the beginning of a weekend and there were no clinics open that would see me until the coming Monday. Something was rapidly deteriorating the skin on my hands. So I called an advice line, and the nurse on the line said that I should go to an emergency department. So I went to an emergency department, waited a few hours and was then seen by a doctor who could not diagnose me. She gave me a prescription for a week course of antibiotics and a topical cream, and said that a dermatology office would call me over the next week. I filled the prescription on my (thankfully exceptionally good) employer drug coverage. I followed the prescription regimen for the week and did not hear from the dermatology office, thankfully the cream was enough to apply according to the directions for up to a month and was seemingly keeping the deterioration of my hands at bay. I waited another two weeks for the dermatologist to call, and they did not. I called the hospital and was connected to a representative which did not speak or understand English very well and ended up being connected to the wrong department; then I called the hospital again and the lady at the hospital connected me with the dermatology office which was to receive my referral. After about 25 minutes I was able to deduce that the ER had not yet faxed the referral to the dermatology office, so I called the ER and thankfully still had my discharge form on hand to reference and help them track down the referral. I made sure they faxed the referral, and confirmed with the dermatology office which told me that I would be scheduled for about Tuesday last week (and would receive a call when it was confirmed). I still haven't heard from the dermatologists and I'll probably have to nag them again. I'm currently attempting to treat the condition by myself by reading random articles and blogs, and medical research on Baidu Wenku (thank god for high IQ) and doing okay, though it's not eliminated. For critical/emergency care, Canada's system often works quite well (though sometimes fails horribly). If you have anything less than an emergency, or need dental work or drugs, you need your own insurance. That said, the fields which are still private in Canada (lasik, dental, optical) are reasonable to pay for by yourself if you're middle class. The fields which are covered by government insurance are illegal to pay for by yourself.

If you have a welfare state then you need borders and immigration control to keep people from exploiting it. If your government relies on labour inefficiency for revenue (as a welfare state does) then globalization will impoverish your government, driving up tax rates; and since this is unsustainable, you must inevitably protect national labour.

wazoox 9y ago
Notice that the countries with the largest welfare states in the world (Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway) fare better by far in global indexes of happiness, human development, freedom, democracy, etc.
prodmerc 9y ago
By welfare state you mean states with extreme income inequality? Because Europe does pretty well on welfare, because it taxes the rich more. And it has protectionism too, which helps.
CalRobert 9y ago
This is a really good point. It's the only argument I've heard against a strong social safety net that makes sense, and I really don't know a good counter. If you have government-provided health care, government-provided university, etc. then you are very likely to _have_ to restrict immigration since there will be people from places that do not offer those things who wish to avail of it. After all, you'd be foolish not to. If every sick American without health insurance could just pop over to Canada to get treated for free it would bankrupt Canada. I am a supporter of single payer health care and vastly reduced tuition (or the elimination of the university's role in modern society, but that's another conversation), but I also like the idea of freedom to travel and open borders, and I've never found a way to square the two. I used to burn with envy when I read that such and such writer or artist moved to Paris from the US like it was no problem at all - how was it possible 100 years ago but not now? France offered fewer protections then, and had less to lose from letting people in.
- redy 9y ago
  > I am a supporter of single payer health care and vastly reduced tuition (or the elimination of the university's role in modern society, but that's another conversation), but I also like the idea of freedom to travel and open borders, and I've never found a way to square the two. This is deeply misguided. I strongly encourage you to look at the evidence about the impact of immigrants on government's fiscal positions. In both the Germany and the US there is strong evidence that immigrants contribute far more in taxes than the benefits they receive. It's possible to have a discussion about the economic impact on immigration but it requires examination of facts, not cockamie speculation that the government "loses" on every immigrant.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  I think it's only a good argument if, when you weigh your ability to travel like a 18th century writer and the ability of the poorest in society to avoid destitution, you find that they come out close. The best argument in favor of welfare continues to be the Rawlsian veil of ignorance and I'm pretty sure that behind that veil I would pick welfare programs over free travel.
  - CalRobert 9y ago
    Just googled "Rawlsian veil of ignorance" - interesting reading. I hadn't heard the term before. Thanks for exposing me to it.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  I live in Canada, and here's how my last couple months with the healthcare system has gone (anecdote and first world problem alert): About two months ago, it was the beginning of a weekend and there were no clinics open that would see me until the coming Monday. Something was rapidly deteriorating the skin on my hands. So I called an advice line, and the nurse on the line said that I should go to an emergency department. So I went to an emergency department, waited a few hours and was then seen by a doctor who could not diagnose me. She gave me a prescription for a week course of antibiotics and a topical cream, and said that a dermatology office would call me over the next week. I filled the prescription on my (thankfully exceptionally good) employer drug coverage. I followed the prescription regimen for the week and did not hear from the dermatology office, thankfully the cream was enough to apply according to the directions for up to a month and was seemingly keeping the deterioration of my hands at bay. I waited another two weeks for the dermatologist to call, and they did not. I called the hospital and was connected to a representative which did not speak or understand English very well and ended up being connected to the wrong department; then I called the hospital again and the lady at the hospital connected me with the dermatology office which was to receive my referral. After about 25 minutes I was able to deduce that the ER had not yet faxed the referral to the dermatology office, so I called the ER and thankfully still had my discharge form on hand to reference and help them track down the referral. I made sure they faxed the referral, and confirmed with the dermatology office which told me that I would be scheduled for about Tuesday last week (and would receive a call when it was confirmed). I still haven't heard from the dermatologists and I'll probably have to nag them again. I'm currently attempting to treat the condition by myself by reading random articles and blogs, and medical research on Baidu Wenku (thank god for high IQ) and doing okay, though it's not eliminated. For critical/emergency care, Canada's system often works quite well (though sometimes fails horribly). If you have anything less than an emergency, or need dental work or drugs, you need your own insurance. That said, the fields which are still private in Canada (lasik, dental, optical) are reasonable to pay for by yourself if you're middle class. The fields which are covered by government insurance are illegal to pay for by yourself.