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There is. https://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage https://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage Presumably equality there isn't as exciting to people b

by jrkatz 9y ago

There is. https://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage https://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage Presumably equality there isn't as exciting to people because teacher pay is garbage for everybody, whereas in tech it looks like women are being locked out of one of our most lucrative industries.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
drakenot 9y ago
I've been hearing about the lack of diversity my whole career and I'm sick of it. Women aren't being kept out. They keep themselves out. There is a social stigma in the United States against going into technical fields in the first place amongst women. India, for example, has no stigma of women working in tech. It is no coincidence that the vast majority of woman I have worked with have all been from other countries. They earn good salaries and are strong contributors on the teams I've been on. There were exactly 2 females in my Computer Science program in college. Eventually there was just one who graduated with us. No amount of blog posts or news articles about diversity at companies will fix that. The problem is WAY earlier than that. You aren't going to be able to magically find a plethora of adult female engineers if they simply aren't enrolling in the programs in the first place.
- urahara 9y ago
  That's not correct. Facts are the opposite, women are kept out on many levels because of how they are often seen by society and what treatment do they regularly get along their career paths in the industry. Many research has been done on that, on many levels. What you describe as 'they simply aren't enrolling' is largely the result of keeping them out.
  - drakenot 9y ago
    The statement of "Facts are the opposite" isn't a compelling argument. I wrote that there is a social stigma against women, in the United States, against going into technical fields. If you want to view that as "society keeping them out", then fine. But women aren't being kept out in any overt way. Women would have been accepted just as anyone else in my Computer Science university program. These would be women who hadn't even gotten started on the career paths. If they are being kept-out, then why are the foreign women that I work with, who don't share the same sense of social stigma, able to have such productive careers? Are they immune from the bad treatment?
- rayiner 9y ago
  You say "women aren't being kept out," but then admit there is a "social stigma against women going into tech." Which is it?
  - drakenot 9y ago
    There is a social stigma, but, as far as I can tell, it seems to largely be a stigma between women themselves. Even if there is some wider social stigma, I don't think that it constitutes "being kept out." There is a similar social stigma against men being nurses, but I wouldn't claim that men are being "kept out of nursing." It is just looked at slightly oddly by some and this leads to less male nurses. Why is there not more noise about this imbalance? The whole problem is that all of the discussion around the issue of women in tech seems to focus on the problem way too late in the "pipeline". It is trying to address the symptoms after the damage is already done. Trying to focus on hiring more women, as a goal unto itself, seems wrong to me. The problem isn't hiring more women. That leads to people hiring under-qualified women simply because they are women. The problem is that the supply is crazy low because <20% of Computer Science graduates are women in the United States. So, if you want to fix this imbalance then fix the stigma. Perhaps have a marketing campaign that makes it seem less socially damning to be a girl hacker while they are an adolescent.

by jrkatz 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

drakenot 9y ago

I've been hearing about the lack of diversity my whole career and I'm sick of it. Women aren't being kept out. They keep themselves out. There is a social stigma in the United States against going into technical fields in the first place amongst women. India, for example, has no stigma of women working in tech. It is no coincidence that the vast majority of woman I have worked with have all been from other countries. They earn good salaries and are strong contributors on the teams I've been on. There were exactly 2 females in my Computer Science program in college. Eventually there was just one who graduated with us. No amount of blog posts or news articles about diversity at companies will fix that. The problem is WAY earlier than that. You aren't going to be able to magically find a plethora of adult female engineers if they simply aren't enrolling in the programs in the first place.

urahara 9y ago
That's not correct. Facts are the opposite, women are kept out on many levels because of how they are often seen by society and what treatment do they regularly get along their career paths in the industry. Many research has been done on that, on many levels. What you describe as 'they simply aren't enrolling' is largely the result of keeping them out.
- drakenot 9y ago
  The statement of "Facts are the opposite" isn't a compelling argument. I wrote that there is a social stigma against women, in the United States, against going into technical fields. If you want to view that as "society keeping them out", then fine. But women aren't being kept out in any overt way. Women would have been accepted just as anyone else in my Computer Science university program. These would be women who hadn't even gotten started on the career paths. If they are being kept-out, then why are the foreign women that I work with, who don't share the same sense of social stigma, able to have such productive careers? Are they immune from the bad treatment?
rayiner 9y ago
You say "women aren't being kept out," but then admit there is a "social stigma against women going into tech." Which is it?
- drakenot 9y ago
  There is a social stigma, but, as far as I can tell, it seems to largely be a stigma between women themselves. Even if there is some wider social stigma, I don't think that it constitutes "being kept out." There is a similar social stigma against men being nurses, but I wouldn't claim that men are being "kept out of nursing." It is just looked at slightly oddly by some and this leads to less male nurses. Why is there not more noise about this imbalance? The whole problem is that all of the discussion around the issue of women in tech seems to focus on the problem way too late in the "pipeline". It is trying to address the symptoms after the damage is already done. Trying to focus on hiring more women, as a goal unto itself, seems wrong to me. The problem isn't hiring more women. That leads to people hiring under-qualified women simply because they are women. The problem is that the supply is crazy low because <20% of Computer Science graduates are women in the United States. So, if you want to fix this imbalance then fix the stigma. Perhaps have a marketing campaign that makes it seem less socially damning to be a girl hacker while they are an adolescent.