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> "By saying it was the Africans who did the kidnapping, you're putting the crime on them. But if they refused, they likely would have been enslaved or killed."

> "By saying it was the Africans who did the kidnapping, you're putting the crime on them. But if they refused, they likely would have been enslaved or killed." Way to go and completely distort all historical evidence to try and shift the blame. Let's get something clear, the natives selling other natives were from tribes/kingdoms that had been at war for centuries. Europeans clearly created more demand and are at fault for that. But the natives were very clearly and very well documented NOT coerced (like you are trying to claim), they just continued doing what they already did for at least 15 centuries before. And also, they continued doing it AFTER the Europeans stopped slavery. Thing is, even today there are millions of slaves in Africa and really we can easily agree it's not the Europeans that own them or trade them in present times. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa > "Your comments were about how Portugal was at ease with it's slavery past, and came as part of the "Africans were the kidnappers" spiel. Mainland Portugal was in control of Brazil at the time, part of this time involved the court located in Brazil." No, my main comment was that LISBON didn't had the slaving history as the article is trying to put on it and as such, Portugal being the first nation to forbid slavery (even of just in the mainland) goes on to validate my point about LISBON.

boomboomsubban 9y ago
>But the natives were very clearly and very well documented NOT coerced (like you are trying to claim), they just continued doing what they already did for at least 15 centuries before. Again, you're looking at things too directly. If they refused, the offer would go out to their rivals. So unless every group of people refused, you were facing slavery or death if you refused. You keep mentioning Africa's ancient slave legacy, ignoring your own source saying that it isn't clear chattel slavery was practiced in the area, and that war slaves were a common feature in Europe until the eighteenth century. >validate my point about LISBON. Yet you ignored the parts that didn't, like the ten percent of the population part.
- jbmorgado 9y ago
  > "If they refused, the offer would go out to their rivals. " Ok, so what? Both you and you rival have something to sell. If I don't buy it from you, I buy it from your rival. Let's face it, the Europeans created a greater demand for a product that the natives were already providing: Slaves. (no disrespect intended by the word product, just an analogy). > *"ignoring your own source saying that it isn't clear chattel slavery was practiced in the area" The moment the natives the sold those slaves, even if they weren't chattel slaves before (which I agree with you, was not clear), they started practicing chattel slavery. That's just the definition of it. In a nutshell, Europeans didn't turn that people into chattel slaves, they where turned into that by the other natives that enslaved them. > "Yet you ignored the parts that didn't, like the ten percent of the population part." Yes, the 10% that only occurred for a short time compared to the rest of the all Europe and because you keep accounting for people passing by than only spent there some weeks (i.e. the slaves waiting to be sold).
  - boomboomsubban 9y ago
    >Ok, so what? Both you and you rival have something to sell. If I don't buy it from you, I buy it from your rival. It's not a one time transaction. If they buy slaves from your rivals, they have more money to spend on arms and a need for more people to sell. So refusing wasn't a safe option, creating a larger demand changed the game dramatically. >In a nutshell, Europeans didn't turn that people into chattel slaves, they where turned into that by the other natives that enslaved them. You could sell a debt slave with the thought the new owner would abide by the same rules. Or if slaves were treated as members of your household with an free children and a general path back to freedom, you might expect the buyer does the same. If you don't view people as property, you won't expect what someone buying them will do. >Yes, the 10% that only occurred for a short time compared to the rest of the all Europe and because you keep accounting for people passing by than only spent there some weeks (i.e. the slaves waiting to be sold). Source? As given how poorly Portugal looks in the slave trade, the last ship of slaves being Portugese to Brazil, that is hard to believe. And are you really happy with the argument "Portugal shouldn't overly acknowledge the slave trade, they barely kept any in the mainland while profiting off their sale and work for centuries."

boomboomsubban 9y ago

>But the natives were very clearly and very well documented NOT coerced (like you are trying to claim), they just continued doing what they already did for at least 15 centuries before. Again, you're looking at things too directly. If they refused, the offer would go out to their rivals. So unless every group of people refused, you were facing slavery or death if you refused. You keep mentioning Africa's ancient slave legacy, ignoring your own source saying that it isn't clear chattel slavery was practiced in the area, and that war slaves were a common feature in Europe until the eighteenth century. >validate my point about LISBON. Yet you ignored the parts that didn't, like the ten percent of the population part.

jbmorgado 9y ago
> "If they refused, the offer would go out to their rivals. " Ok, so what? Both you and you rival have something to sell. If I don't buy it from you, I buy it from your rival. Let's face it, the Europeans created a greater demand for a product that the natives were already providing: Slaves. (no disrespect intended by the word product, just an analogy). > *"ignoring your own source saying that it isn't clear chattel slavery was practiced in the area" The moment the natives the sold those slaves, even if they weren't chattel slaves before (which I agree with you, was not clear), they started practicing chattel slavery. That's just the definition of it. In a nutshell, Europeans didn't turn that people into chattel slaves, they where turned into that by the other natives that enslaved them. > "Yet you ignored the parts that didn't, like the ten percent of the population part." Yes, the 10% that only occurred for a short time compared to the rest of the all Europe and because you keep accounting for people passing by than only spent there some weeks (i.e. the slaves waiting to be sold).
- boomboomsubban 9y ago
  >Ok, so what? Both you and you rival have something to sell. If I don't buy it from you, I buy it from your rival. It's not a one time transaction. If they buy slaves from your rivals, they have more money to spend on arms and a need for more people to sell. So refusing wasn't a safe option, creating a larger demand changed the game dramatically. >In a nutshell, Europeans didn't turn that people into chattel slaves, they where turned into that by the other natives that enslaved them. You could sell a debt slave with the thought the new owner would abide by the same rules. Or if slaves were treated as members of your household with an free children and a general path back to freedom, you might expect the buyer does the same. If you don't view people as property, you won't expect what someone buying them will do. >Yes, the 10% that only occurred for a short time compared to the rest of the all Europe and because you keep accounting for people passing by than only spent there some weeks (i.e. the slaves waiting to be sold). Source? As given how poorly Portugal looks in the slave trade, the last ship of slaves being Portugese to Brazil, that is hard to believe. And are you really happy with the argument "Portugal shouldn't overly acknowledge the slave trade, they barely kept any in the mainland while profiting off their sale and work for centuries."