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I haven't looked into McClure's offenses beyond what the article talks about, but those slides seem totally innocent to me (it's a joke targeted at VCs more tha

I haven't looked into McClure's offenses beyond what the article talks about, but those slides seem totally innocent to me (it's a joke targeted at VCs more than anything else), which just makes him seem less guilty in this context ('cause why not just use real evidence then?). No comment on his actual guilt. This quote from the linked article (from Chris Sacca) seems apt: Over the last week, I have spoken with friends, friends of friends, heard from people from my past including stories of how I’d behaved, and read incredibly thoughtful and courageous essays. I’ve learned that it’s often the less obvious, yet pervasive and questionable, everyday behaviors of men in our industry that collectively make it inhospitable for women. There is definitely a pervasive issue here in software culture as it relates to women, and maybe singling out and punishing individuals is the only way to combat it—but my first inclination when making moral judgements is to consider intent. When I see those slides above, I see the work of someone whose 'filter' and sensitivity to not offending people is lower than average. I do not see immoral activity, however. I will gladly look at more info. on McClure's offenses if anyone wants to share—and I'm perfectly aware he may not be an instance of what I'm about to mention here—but, we recognize there is a systemic issue with gender equality in software which needs to be fixed, but is there maybe a better strategy than punishing individuals who get caught displaying symptoms of the admitted, systemic issue? (or do we retract the claim that there's a systemic issue? —cause those things are at odds: is it the fault of the culture these people are a part of, or have they personally done something egregious? We could mistakenly go too far in either direction, but maybe our aim will be better if that part of the issue is at least considered...)

coldtea 9y ago
>I haven't looked into McClure's offenses beyond what the article talks about, but those slides seem totally innocent to me Not in a puritan country. People have lost their jobs for making a "dongle -> dick" joke speaking to their friend at a conference because someone overheard...
skywhopper 9y ago
Obviously that slide deck was not the offense in question for Mr McClure. However, I'm surprised you think the slide deck is appropriate. Here's a good tip: sexual jokes and references are just not appropriate for a business context. And they become even more inappropriate the greater the gender imbalance is. When there's one or two women in a room of fifty men, and you give a presentation mentioning the supposed universal desire of getting laid, money shots, and showing a guy cuddling up with two adoring women, all of whom are partially undressed, that is creating an extraordinarily uncomfortable environment for those women. Combine that with near-constant "flirting" and come-ons those women experience from the men with more money and more power who surround them and can control their future in the industry and who often react very badly to any suggestion that they are being too aggressive or misinterpreting the women's behavior, and it feels like real menace, not harmless jokes.
- westoncb 9y ago
  That's a good point, and I agree that depending on the gender ratios present, it could be a very uncomfortable situation for minority female attendees. Also, the money shot and guy cuddling with two girls are pretty iffy. At the same time, however, you are only addressing my first sentence, and my question remains about how to best deal with this: even granting the above, I'm still left with the impression that this guy is largely socially tone deaf and non-malicious, and a product of his culture: so is it possible to make corrections without 'treating the symptom' (i.e. punishing individuals who happen to display symptoms of a systemic issue)—or maybe that's the only way we can get at it?
  - ethbro 9y ago
    I'll comment more on racism in the south, but in my opinion the best formulation of the problem is: "there are systemic, bad cultural norms". If you look at it this way, then punishing every incidence is critical if you want to change attitude towards them (albeit in a contextually-adjusted severe manner, of course). But for people just "following how things are done", the disincentive is chance_of_being_caught * punishment_for_being_caught. If only the second term in that equation changes as a result of the current push, then I feel like it just creates more inequality and doesn't change the underlying problem as much. So yes, punishment for all to some degree that's more than a wrist slap.

coldtea 9y ago

>I haven't looked into McClure's offenses beyond what the article talks about, but those slides seem totally innocent to me Not in a puritan country. People have lost their jobs for making a "dongle -> dick" joke speaking to their friend at a conference because someone overheard...

skywhopper 9y ago

Obviously that slide deck was not the offense in question for Mr McClure. However, I'm surprised you think the slide deck is appropriate. Here's a good tip: sexual jokes and references are just not appropriate for a business context. And they become even more inappropriate the greater the gender imbalance is. When there's one or two women in a room of fifty men, and you give a presentation mentioning the supposed universal desire of getting laid, money shots, and showing a guy cuddling up with two adoring women, all of whom are partially undressed, that is creating an extraordinarily uncomfortable environment for those women. Combine that with near-constant "flirting" and come-ons those women experience from the men with more money and more power who surround them and can control their future in the industry and who often react very badly to any suggestion that they are being too aggressive or misinterpreting the women's behavior, and it feels like real menace, not harmless jokes.

westoncb 9y ago
That's a good point, and I agree that depending on the gender ratios present, it could be a very uncomfortable situation for minority female attendees. Also, the money shot and guy cuddling with two girls are pretty iffy. At the same time, however, you are only addressing my first sentence, and my question remains about how to best deal with this: even granting the above, I'm still left with the impression that this guy is largely socially tone deaf and non-malicious, and a product of his culture: so is it possible to make corrections without 'treating the symptom' (i.e. punishing individuals who happen to display symptoms of a systemic issue)—or maybe that's the only way we can get at it?
- ethbro 9y ago
  I'll comment more on racism in the south, but in my opinion the best formulation of the problem is: "there are systemic, bad cultural norms". If you look at it this way, then punishing every incidence is critical if you want to change attitude towards them (albeit in a contextually-adjusted severe manner, of course). But for people just "following how things are done", the disincentive is chance_of_being_caught * punishment_for_being_caught. If only the second term in that equation changes as a result of the current push, then I feel like it just creates more inequality and doesn't change the underlying problem as much. So yes, punishment for all to some degree that's more than a wrist slap.