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Hi Anita! Nice to meet you! I really hope you'll come to Schnitzelconf, your projects look awesome! Either way, we should at least meet for coffee sometime. Fo

Hi Anita! Nice to meet you! I really hope you'll come to Schnitzelconf, your projects look awesome! Either way, we should at least meet for coffee sometime. For the record, your friends are extra silly. You know that self-employed people (selbständig) in Austria have social health insurance, pension, and even unemployment coverage? My husband is selbständig and he even has a part-time employee, all without creating a GMBH. (Don't get me started on how GMBHs are superior to the American LLC!)

ido 16y ago
My husband is selbständig and he even has a part-time employee, all without creating a GMBH. (Don't get me started on how GMBHs are superior to the American LLC!) This might be getting off-topic, but I would personally be interested to hear the aforementioned opinion about GmBHs.
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  Buy me a coffee sometime and I'll be glad to tell you. :) I live in the 6th and work in the 14th (for now).
  - ido 16y ago
    You're on, email sent.
  - torpor 16y ago
    Instead of 'doing coffee' with all these guys, why don't you come to Metalab on Friday night and hold a few lightning talks? http://metalab.at/ http://metalab.at/
    - ahoyhere 16y ago
      Why not? Simple reason… I get the feeling that many of the people at Metalab that I have met are aggressive anti-making-money at worst and disinterested in being told that Austria is actually a fantastic place to start a business. I think a lot of people complain because it gives them an excuse. I don't think my talk would be welcome, or I would be given the cold shoulder, so I don't put myself through it.
      - torpor 16y ago
        Well, you're wrong. There are tons of people in the Metalab scene who are into making money, and who want to get their startups rolling .. otherwise why else would there be so many startup meetings there in the first place? >I don't think my talk would be welcome, or I would be given the cold shoulder, so I don't put myself through it. Weird. Preach to the converted, much?
        ahoyhere 16y ago
        I'm wrong? I've got into this conversation - about how the business climate here is actually excellent - at MetaLab, with MetaLab members, after viennajs more than once, and they sure didn't want to hear it. And as for preaching to the choir, no. If I were only interested in preaching to the choir, why would I bother to create a fairly controversial conference? After all, the "accepted" startup model is building, growing huge, and hoping for an acquisition, rather than charging. But preaching to people who really don't want to hear it - that's another story, and a total waste of time.
        torpor 16y ago
        No, you're wrong about Metalab - there are plenty of people in the Metalab scene who would respond to your ideas if you were to make the effort to present them .. metalab is a hotbed of new-startup activity and some of the hackers there are really trying to make money, rather than just get it from their parents, as so many "smart kids in Vienna" do these days .. What you might be interpreting as disinterest in the subject of startups is more like to be a disinterest in the means by which you are preaching to the converted .. sure you're not just getting a negative personal response and broadly generalizing it to avoid discomfort?
        ahoyhere 16y ago
        I didn't say they were disinterested in startups, I said they were disinterested in talking about charging money for products and how the business climate in Austria is actually superior to that in the US. Not everyone - but enough that I wouldn't bother trying to force my unwelcome ideas on people by giving a talk. And yes, I'm positive it's not "a negative personal response." The people I have connected with clearly enjoy my company.
fauigerzigerk 16y ago
The problem is, you don't simply "have" health and pensions insurance, you are forced to pay somewhere around 250 euros per month for that insurance, regardless of your income. During the first 3 years of your first startup it is less than that. Unemployment insurance (which is a ridiculous idea for the self-employed anyway) is voluntary and costs extra. In the UK, the minimum contribution is around 20 euros per month. It gives you health coverage (no dental) and you are not forced to pay into the pensions system. In my view, the UK system is hugely more attractive for startups. Ireland is similar I believe.
- madrobby 16y ago
  Maybe. But if you can't make €250 per month, you're doing it wrong, or not aiming high enough -- but you can learn how to do it right. To be "successful" for a one-man/woman show I'd argue that you need to earn at least €5k a month, after recurring costs for your business, but without taxes/insurance etc. It's really not that hard to reach that level with the right idea, the right presumptions, lots of work and none of the excuses. EDIT: Actually, when I first started being "selbstständig" back in 2004 and got a tax consultant, she asked me "how much do you plan to earn per month?", and I said "5000 euros"-- she thought it was a joke. Mindset problem.
  - fauigerzigerk 16y ago
    No, I think it's the other way around. If you can make 250 per month plus regular living expenses from the get go you're probably not aiming high enough. Why would anyone need financing from ycombinator if they could just be profitable? How long did it take Facebook to be profitable? Or Google? The burn rate is very important initially. It can make or break a startup.
    - ahoyhere 16y ago
      3 (or possibly 4 - I didn't ask) of the speakers I invited started companies, with zero funding or with a bit of F&F, that have revenues from nearly-$2 mil/yr to more than $2 mil/yr. Maybe you should write them to tell them that it's not possible without $5,000 of funding for a summer. On the balance, if you can't manage to figure out ways to save $5k for a summer yourself, you should seriously question whether you have the ability to run a business. If you can't figure out how to pay for 250 euros a month - which you could earn each week as a dishwasher in Vienna, so it's not as if it's some vast sum - then you are similarly ill-equipped. If you can't bear to give up one week of your time in order to spend the other 3 weeks on your huge future business, ditto. By the way: I wrote an ebook to self-fund our work on Freckle and it earned us over $40k. It was sooooooo haaaaaaard. But even then, it was cream - not necessary. We could have kept working on it after hours for free, as we had been doing. It would have taken a bit longer, but so what?

ido 16y ago

My husband is selbständig and he even has a part-time employee, all without creating a GMBH. (Don't get me started on how GMBHs are superior to the American LLC!) This might be getting off-topic, but I would personally be interested to hear the aforementioned opinion about GmBHs.

ahoyhere 16y ago
Buy me a coffee sometime and I'll be glad to tell you. :) I live in the 6th and work in the 14th (for now).
- ido 16y ago
  You're on, email sent.
- torpor 16y ago
  Instead of 'doing coffee' with all these guys, why don't you come to Metalab on Friday night and hold a few lightning talks? http://metalab.at/ http://metalab.at/
  - ahoyhere 16y ago
    Why not? Simple reason… I get the feeling that many of the people at Metalab that I have met are aggressive anti-making-money at worst and disinterested in being told that Austria is actually a fantastic place to start a business. I think a lot of people complain because it gives them an excuse. I don't think my talk would be welcome, or I would be given the cold shoulder, so I don't put myself through it.
    - torpor 16y ago
      Well, you're wrong. There are tons of people in the Metalab scene who are into making money, and who want to get their startups rolling .. otherwise why else would there be so many startup meetings there in the first place? >I don't think my talk would be welcome, or I would be given the cold shoulder, so I don't put myself through it. Weird. Preach to the converted, much?
      - ahoyhere 16y ago
        I'm wrong? I've got into this conversation - about how the business climate here is actually excellent - at MetaLab, with MetaLab members, after viennajs more than once, and they sure didn't want to hear it. And as for preaching to the choir, no. If I were only interested in preaching to the choir, why would I bother to create a fairly controversial conference? After all, the "accepted" startup model is building, growing huge, and hoping for an acquisition, rather than charging. But preaching to people who really don't want to hear it - that's another story, and a total waste of time.
        torpor 16y ago
        No, you're wrong about Metalab - there are plenty of people in the Metalab scene who would respond to your ideas if you were to make the effort to present them .. metalab is a hotbed of new-startup activity and some of the hackers there are really trying to make money, rather than just get it from their parents, as so many "smart kids in Vienna" do these days .. What you might be interpreting as disinterest in the subject of startups is more like to be a disinterest in the means by which you are preaching to the converted .. sure you're not just getting a negative personal response and broadly generalizing it to avoid discomfort?
        ahoyhere 16y ago
        I didn't say they were disinterested in startups, I said they were disinterested in talking about charging money for products and how the business climate in Austria is actually superior to that in the US. Not everyone - but enough that I wouldn't bother trying to force my unwelcome ideas on people by giving a talk. And yes, I'm positive it's not "a negative personal response." The people I have connected with clearly enjoy my company.

fauigerzigerk 16y ago

The problem is, you don't simply "have" health and pensions insurance, you are forced to pay somewhere around 250 euros per month for that insurance, regardless of your income. During the first 3 years of your first startup it is less than that. Unemployment insurance (which is a ridiculous idea for the self-employed anyway) is voluntary and costs extra. In the UK, the minimum contribution is around 20 euros per month. It gives you health coverage (no dental) and you are not forced to pay into the pensions system. In my view, the UK system is hugely more attractive for startups. Ireland is similar I believe.

madrobby 16y ago
Maybe. But if you can't make €250 per month, you're doing it wrong, or not aiming high enough -- but you can learn how to do it right. To be "successful" for a one-man/woman show I'd argue that you need to earn at least €5k a month, after recurring costs for your business, but without taxes/insurance etc. It's really not that hard to reach that level with the right idea, the right presumptions, lots of work and none of the excuses. EDIT: Actually, when I first started being "selbstständig" back in 2004 and got a tax consultant, she asked me "how much do you plan to earn per month?", and I said "5000 euros"-- she thought it was a joke. Mindset problem.
- fauigerzigerk 16y ago
  No, I think it's the other way around. If you can make 250 per month plus regular living expenses from the get go you're probably not aiming high enough. Why would anyone need financing from ycombinator if they could just be profitable? How long did it take Facebook to be profitable? Or Google? The burn rate is very important initially. It can make or break a startup.
  - ahoyhere 16y ago
    3 (or possibly 4 - I didn't ask) of the speakers I invited started companies, with zero funding or with a bit of F&F, that have revenues from nearly-$2 mil/yr to more than $2 mil/yr. Maybe you should write them to tell them that it's not possible without $5,000 of funding for a summer. On the balance, if you can't manage to figure out ways to save $5k for a summer yourself, you should seriously question whether you have the ability to run a business. If you can't figure out how to pay for 250 euros a month - which you could earn each week as a dishwasher in Vienna, so it's not as if it's some vast sum - then you are similarly ill-equipped. If you can't bear to give up one week of your time in order to spend the other 3 weeks on your huge future business, ditto. By the way: I wrote an ebook to self-fund our work on Freckle and it earned us over $40k. It was sooooooo haaaaaaard. But even then, it was cream - not necessary. We could have kept working on it after hours for free, as we had been doing. It would have taken a bit longer, but so what?