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Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government. You

Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government. You know there are 7 big health care providers in my state building spectacular facilities as fast as they can, and they don't have to compete with each other? There's no competition. Every pleb goes dutifully to the assigned provider his employer sends him to. You think it's an accident there's weak consumer protections in the U.S. of A? You think it's just dumb luck that health care has no market forces to control costs? We're all about rapacious crony capitalism here!

RobertoG 9y ago
Reading your comment, it just occurred to me that I don't know if there is any country where healthcare works well without government intervention. We always talk about the USA vs. Europe, but I don't know if there are other examples that we can borrow. When you talk about market directed healthcare, do you have any example in mind?
- humanrebar 9y ago
  Has it even been tried in a developed country in the last 100 years? The US has had distorted markets dating back to the 1930s at least.
  - Jotra7 9y ago
    No true Scotsman all up in here.
- mdpopescu 9y ago
  I can only talk about the situation here in Romania. State health care is "free" (that is, everybody pays 6.5% of their income as health insurance) and of very poor quality. You have to bribe everyone - doctors, nurses, cleaning people - in order to get any treatment. Private health care is somewhat more expensive; you can either pay as needed (which is what I usually do) or you can buy private insurance. The lowest private insurance I know of is $3 / month; the highest I have heard of is about $300 / month. The latter includes emergency surgery in a foreign country (Germany or Switzerland, their doctors are considered better).
Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
Why do most people in the US seem to never look abroad when it comes to healthcare? The US healthcare system is probably the most privatized in the developed world. The systems in other developed countries (e.g. any European country) give more weight to the government, and have been shown by all sorts of metric to work much better. How can you still say "don't sign us up for more government"?
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > Why do most people in the US seem to never look abroad when it comes to healthcare? The Brits were just debating how much nurses should get paid. When government runs your organization, math and economics become subservient to politics. > The US healthcare system is probably the most privatized in the developed world. It has privatized profits, but the whole system is heavily regulated. Prices for things are certainly not set on open markets.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    > Prices for things are certainly not set on open markets. You say this, yet Americans pay twice as much for care that is of considerably lower quality than other civilized countries. Do you think it's a coincidence that in one of the most privatized for-profit healthcare industries in the civilized world, we pay more? Sure, other systems have issues and are not perfect, but that doesn't excuse America's substandard healthcare system.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Again, it's private and for profit, but it's not market based. It's just a big ball of bureaucracy, unintended consequences, and corruption (at least in the sense that the system isn't following its intended purposes). If it were market based, there would be a trivially discoverable price for commodity operations and such. How much does it cost for a skin cancer screening in Topeka? It depends? Well, that's a routine procedure that isn't really offered in the open market. It should just have published (and even advertised!) prices so normal consumers can shop around for quality screenings at fair prices. I'm very critical of the American healthcare system, if that wasn't clear. But its failings are certainly not being too market based or too unregulated.
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
Lack of good government regulation is what created the mess you are in, the real world isn't like some Ayn Rand novel.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  "Good" government regulation is what created the mess. Patents on prescriptions. When loopholes can be applied or not to offer generics. Licensing and certifications. What counts as "health insurance". What kinds of medical practices can be opened. What drugs can be offered across state or national boundaries. Who gets discounts on health insurance (employers) and who doesn't (employees). The list goes on.
  - pm90 9y ago
    This is simply not true. What you seem to be suggesting is that we leave the healthcare market completely open to market forces. This would be a disaster of epic proportions because, realistically, not everyone can afford their own healthcare costs. This is why we have health insurance, and regulations exist to protect citizens against predatory practices. Some of these regulations are misguided, and others are a result of lobbying by special interests. Most of them are OK.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      > What you seem to be suggesting is that we leave the healthcare market completely open to market forces. I suggested nothing of the sort. I said our current regulation regime is harmful, however good the intentions were when it was passed. > This would be a disaster of epic proportions because, realistically, not everyone can afford their own healthcare costs. I also never said the impoverished should be left to die in the streets. The government clearly needs to help people afford things. But the current regulatory approach is both too heavy and too complex. > ...regulations exist to protect citizens against predatory practices. And they're clearly not working, no matter the intention when they were passed. > Most of them are OK. Like the ones that let pharma companies keep generic drugs off the market? Or the ones that heavily regulate drug releases but could not prevent the opioid epidemic? There should be regulations. There should be welfare. They should both be simple (anything else is not fair, especially for the consumer) and they should use markets to figure out what the price of things should be (anything else is still not fair and is subject to special interests).

RobertoG 9y ago

Reading your comment, it just occurred to me that I don't know if there is any country where healthcare works well without government intervention. We always talk about the USA vs. Europe, but I don't know if there are other examples that we can borrow. When you talk about market directed healthcare, do you have any example in mind?

humanrebar 9y ago
Has it even been tried in a developed country in the last 100 years? The US has had distorted markets dating back to the 1930s at least.
- Jotra7 9y ago
  No true Scotsman all up in here.
mdpopescu 9y ago
I can only talk about the situation here in Romania. State health care is "free" (that is, everybody pays 6.5% of their income as health insurance) and of very poor quality. You have to bribe everyone - doctors, nurses, cleaning people - in order to get any treatment. Private health care is somewhat more expensive; you can either pay as needed (which is what I usually do) or you can buy private insurance. The lowest private insurance I know of is $3 / month; the highest I have heard of is about $300 / month. The latter includes emergency surgery in a foreign country (Germany or Switzerland, their doctors are considered better).

Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago

Why do most people in the US seem to never look abroad when it comes to healthcare? The US healthcare system is probably the most privatized in the developed world. The systems in other developed countries (e.g. any European country) give more weight to the government, and have been shown by all sorts of metric to work much better. How can you still say "don't sign us up for more government"?

humanrebar 9y ago
> Why do most people in the US seem to never look abroad when it comes to healthcare? The Brits were just debating how much nurses should get paid. When government runs your organization, math and economics become subservient to politics. > The US healthcare system is probably the most privatized in the developed world. It has privatized profits, but the whole system is heavily regulated. Prices for things are certainly not set on open markets.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > Prices for things are certainly not set on open markets. You say this, yet Americans pay twice as much for care that is of considerably lower quality than other civilized countries. Do you think it's a coincidence that in one of the most privatized for-profit healthcare industries in the civilized world, we pay more? Sure, other systems have issues and are not perfect, but that doesn't excuse America's substandard healthcare system.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Again, it's private and for profit, but it's not market based. It's just a big ball of bureaucracy, unintended consequences, and corruption (at least in the sense that the system isn't following its intended purposes). If it were market based, there would be a trivially discoverable price for commodity operations and such. How much does it cost for a skin cancer screening in Topeka? It depends? Well, that's a routine procedure that isn't really offered in the open market. It should just have published (and even advertised!) prices so normal consumers can shop around for quality screenings at fair prices. I'm very critical of the American healthcare system, if that wasn't clear. But its failings are certainly not being too market based or too unregulated.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

Lack of good government regulation is what created the mess you are in, the real world isn't like some Ayn Rand novel.

humanrebar 9y ago
"Good" government regulation is what created the mess. Patents on prescriptions. When loopholes can be applied or not to offer generics. Licensing and certifications. What counts as "health insurance". What kinds of medical practices can be opened. What drugs can be offered across state or national boundaries. Who gets discounts on health insurance (employers) and who doesn't (employees). The list goes on.
- pm90 9y ago
  This is simply not true. What you seem to be suggesting is that we leave the healthcare market completely open to market forces. This would be a disaster of epic proportions because, realistically, not everyone can afford their own healthcare costs. This is why we have health insurance, and regulations exist to protect citizens against predatory practices. Some of these regulations are misguided, and others are a result of lobbying by special interests. Most of them are OK.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    > What you seem to be suggesting is that we leave the healthcare market completely open to market forces. I suggested nothing of the sort. I said our current regulation regime is harmful, however good the intentions were when it was passed. > This would be a disaster of epic proportions because, realistically, not everyone can afford their own healthcare costs. I also never said the impoverished should be left to die in the streets. The government clearly needs to help people afford things. But the current regulatory approach is both too heavy and too complex. > ...regulations exist to protect citizens against predatory practices. And they're clearly not working, no matter the intention when they were passed. > Most of them are OK. Like the ones that let pharma companies keep generic drugs off the market? Or the ones that heavily regulate drug releases but could not prevent the opioid epidemic? There should be regulations. There should be welfare. They should both be simple (anything else is not fair, especially for the consumer) and they should use markets to figure out what the price of things should be (anything else is still not fair and is subject to special interests).