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I have seen questionable material come from him [1]: Examples: "Money Shot" with kitten spreadings its legs and "Great Products...Get you LAID". [1] https://w

I have seen questionable material come from him [1]: Examples: "Money Shot" with kitten spreadings its legs and "Great Products...Get you LAID". [1] https://www.slideshare.net/dmc500hats/how-to-pitch-a-vc-or-angel-13504703/ https://www.slideshare.net/dmc500hats/how-to-pitch-a-vc-or-a... edit: link directly to slides and deleted nested comment.

gexla 9y ago
Let's say we're talking about Chris Rock. There's a difference between him cracking jokes on a public stage and him directing these same sorts of jokes to a potential hire in a private conversation.
- cylinder 9y ago
  I don't really understand what you're trying to say.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
mhluongo 9y ago
Did he come up with "paid, laid, or made"? I've heard it from sales people and thought it predated McClure. The kitten and "money shot" is absolutely unnecessary, but I get the coarse language for "paid, made, laid"- the idea is that compelling products and services target base desires.
- anindha 9y ago
  I think the most compelling products deliver utility. Even if targeting base desires is your product design strategy doesn't mean it needs to be in a template for future founders to follow. Your argument is similar to the argument for having swimsuit models in tabloid newspapers. NYT is a better product.
  - mhluongo 9y ago
    I'm not claiming he's right. I'm just responding that it's a useful idea, and that the language makes sense to reinforce the idea. Edit: aside, it's interesting (and frustrating) that comments on HN are often assumed to be arguments. Here for a discussion, not to defend a thesis.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    > I think the most compelling products deliver utility. > Your argument is similar to the argument for having swimsuit models in tabloid newspapers. NYT is a better product. The argument is right, because better (as in NYT vs. tabloids, or as in better in worse-is-better) products don't win on market. If you can target base desires, you'll beat products delivering utility.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >Your argument is similar to the argument for having swimsuit models in tabloid newspapers. NYT is a better product. Not if "sells more" is a measure of product betterness. (Besides swimsuit models never harmed anybody -- the NYT helped sell war with huge human toll with BS government-fed info).
  - Alex3917 9y ago
    > Even if targeting base desires is your product design strategy doesn't mean it needs to be in a template for future founders to follow. Call me old school, but I still think that JWZ post "Groupware Bad" is one of the most important in the history of blogging.
borski 9y ago
To be fair, the second slide directly says it is guaranteed to offend.
- askmike 9y ago
  Is that supposed to excuse it?
  - borski 9y ago
    Nope, just stating the fact that he specifically knew he was using it for shock and attention.
- cylinder 9y ago
  "heh, this is guaranteed to offend, but if you go out to dinner with me you'll definitely get this job!"
  - borski 9y ago
    Conflating two things here. Saying something exaggerated and offensive, specifically for effect and attention, is not the same thing as a power play for sex.
- skywhopper 9y ago
  That doesn't make it appropriate. If anything it's evidence that its author knew very well it was _not_ appropriate.
  - borski 9y ago
    Never said it did. He was clearly attempting to use it for shock and attention.
westoncb 9y ago
I haven't looked into McClure's offenses beyond what the article talks about, but those slides seem totally innocent to me (it's a joke targeted at VCs more than anything else), which just makes him seem less guilty in this context ('cause why not just use real evidence then?). No comment on his actual guilt. This quote from the linked article (from Chris Sacca) seems apt: Over the last week, I have spoken with friends, friends of friends, heard from people from my past including stories of how I’d behaved, and read incredibly thoughtful and courageous essays. I’ve learned that it’s often the less obvious, yet pervasive and questionable, everyday behaviors of men in our industry that collectively make it inhospitable for women. There is definitely a pervasive issue here in software culture as it relates to women, and maybe singling out and punishing individuals is the only way to combat it—but my first inclination when making moral judgements is to consider intent. When I see those slides above, I see the work of someone whose 'filter' and sensitivity to not offending people is lower than average. I do not see immoral activity, however. I will gladly look at more info. on McClure's offenses if anyone wants to share—and I'm perfectly aware he may not be an instance of what I'm about to mention here—but, we recognize there is a systemic issue with gender equality in software which needs to be fixed, but is there maybe a better strategy than punishing individuals who get caught displaying symptoms of the admitted, systemic issue? (or do we retract the claim that there's a systemic issue? —cause those things are at odds: is it the fault of the culture these people are a part of, or have they personally done something egregious? We could mistakenly go too far in either direction, but maybe our aim will be better if that part of the issue is at least considered...)
- coldtea 9y ago
  >I haven't looked into McClure's offenses beyond what the article talks about, but those slides seem totally innocent to me Not in a puritan country. People have lost their jobs for making a "dongle -> dick" joke speaking to their friend at a conference because someone overheard...
- skywhopper 9y ago
  Obviously that slide deck was not the offense in question for Mr McClure. However, I'm surprised you think the slide deck is appropriate. Here's a good tip: sexual jokes and references are just not appropriate for a business context. And they become even more inappropriate the greater the gender imbalance is. When there's one or two women in a room of fifty men, and you give a presentation mentioning the supposed universal desire of getting laid, money shots, and showing a guy cuddling up with two adoring women, all of whom are partially undressed, that is creating an extraordinarily uncomfortable environment for those women. Combine that with near-constant "flirting" and come-ons those women experience from the men with more money and more power who surround them and can control their future in the industry and who often react very badly to any suggestion that they are being too aggressive or misinterpreting the women's behavior, and it feels like real menace, not harmless jokes.
moonman272 9y ago
Starting at the beginning of that slide deck, it really seems to be mocking the culture
oliv__ 9y ago
Those slides are of pretty poor taste...

gexla 9y ago

Let's say we're talking about Chris Rock. There's a difference between him cracking jokes on a public stage and him directing these same sorts of jokes to a potential hire in a private conversation.

cylinder 9y ago
I don't really understand what you're trying to say.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

mhluongo 9y ago

Did he come up with "paid, laid, or made"? I've heard it from sales people and thought it predated McClure. The kitten and "money shot" is absolutely unnecessary, but I get the coarse language for "paid, made, laid"- the idea is that compelling products and services target base desires.

anindha 9y ago
I think the most compelling products deliver utility. Even if targeting base desires is your product design strategy doesn't mean it needs to be in a template for future founders to follow. Your argument is similar to the argument for having swimsuit models in tabloid newspapers. NYT is a better product.
- mhluongo 9y ago
  I'm not claiming he's right. I'm just responding that it's a useful idea, and that the language makes sense to reinforce the idea. Edit: aside, it's interesting (and frustrating) that comments on HN are often assumed to be arguments. Here for a discussion, not to defend a thesis.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  > I think the most compelling products deliver utility. > Your argument is similar to the argument for having swimsuit models in tabloid newspapers. NYT is a better product. The argument is right, because better (as in NYT vs. tabloids, or as in better in worse-is-better) products don't win on market. If you can target base desires, you'll beat products delivering utility.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Your argument is similar to the argument for having swimsuit models in tabloid newspapers. NYT is a better product. Not if "sells more" is a measure of product betterness. (Besides swimsuit models never harmed anybody -- the NYT helped sell war with huge human toll with BS government-fed info).
- Alex3917 9y ago
  > Even if targeting base desires is your product design strategy doesn't mean it needs to be in a template for future founders to follow. Call me old school, but I still think that JWZ post "Groupware Bad" is one of the most important in the history of blogging.

borski 9y ago

To be fair, the second slide directly says it is guaranteed to offend.

askmike 9y ago
Is that supposed to excuse it?
- borski 9y ago
  Nope, just stating the fact that he specifically knew he was using it for shock and attention.
cylinder 9y ago
"heh, this is guaranteed to offend, but if you go out to dinner with me you'll definitely get this job!"
- borski 9y ago
  Conflating two things here. Saying something exaggerated and offensive, specifically for effect and attention, is not the same thing as a power play for sex.
skywhopper 9y ago
That doesn't make it appropriate. If anything it's evidence that its author knew very well it was _not_ appropriate.
- borski 9y ago
  Never said it did. He was clearly attempting to use it for shock and attention.

westoncb 9y ago

I haven't looked into McClure's offenses beyond what the article talks about, but those slides seem totally innocent to me (it's a joke targeted at VCs more than anything else), which just makes him seem less guilty in this context ('cause why not just use real evidence then?). No comment on his actual guilt. This quote from the linked article (from Chris Sacca) seems apt: Over the last week, I have spoken with friends, friends of friends, heard from people from my past including stories of how I’d behaved, and read incredibly thoughtful and courageous essays. I’ve learned that it’s often the less obvious, yet pervasive and questionable, everyday behaviors of men in our industry that collectively make it inhospitable for women. There is definitely a pervasive issue here in software culture as it relates to women, and maybe singling out and punishing individuals is the only way to combat it—but my first inclination when making moral judgements is to consider intent. When I see those slides above, I see the work of someone whose 'filter' and sensitivity to not offending people is lower than average. I do not see immoral activity, however. I will gladly look at more info. on McClure's offenses if anyone wants to share—and I'm perfectly aware he may not be an instance of what I'm about to mention here—but, we recognize there is a systemic issue with gender equality in software which needs to be fixed, but is there maybe a better strategy than punishing individuals who get caught displaying symptoms of the admitted, systemic issue? (or do we retract the claim that there's a systemic issue? —cause those things are at odds: is it the fault of the culture these people are a part of, or have they personally done something egregious? We could mistakenly go too far in either direction, but maybe our aim will be better if that part of the issue is at least considered...)

coldtea 9y ago
>I haven't looked into McClure's offenses beyond what the article talks about, but those slides seem totally innocent to me Not in a puritan country. People have lost their jobs for making a "dongle -> dick" joke speaking to their friend at a conference because someone overheard...
skywhopper 9y ago
Obviously that slide deck was not the offense in question for Mr McClure. However, I'm surprised you think the slide deck is appropriate. Here's a good tip: sexual jokes and references are just not appropriate for a business context. And they become even more inappropriate the greater the gender imbalance is. When there's one or two women in a room of fifty men, and you give a presentation mentioning the supposed universal desire of getting laid, money shots, and showing a guy cuddling up with two adoring women, all of whom are partially undressed, that is creating an extraordinarily uncomfortable environment for those women. Combine that with near-constant "flirting" and come-ons those women experience from the men with more money and more power who surround them and can control their future in the industry and who often react very badly to any suggestion that they are being too aggressive or misinterpreting the women's behavior, and it feels like real menace, not harmless jokes.

moonman272 9y ago

Starting at the beginning of that slide deck, it really seems to be mocking the culture

oliv__ 9y ago

Those slides are of pretty poor taste...