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It is both a personal choice and a reflection of society. I am not sure which one has bigger weight. But if you live in the US , are not physically impaired, a

by maxwin 9y ago

It is both a personal choice and a reflection of society. I am not sure which one has bigger weight. But if you live in the US , are not physically impaired, and high school educated. Personal choice definitely has much more weight. I know many friends who come to US from Myanmar. Don't speak English , no degrees. But almost all of them live above average several years later. But they sure need to work really hard.

Godel_unicode 9y ago
I anecdotally know far more people who coast and don't do well than I know who either coast and do well or don't coast and don't do well. I think part of the problem is a combination of a bias against impugning others effort because "you don't know their struggle" and just enough counter examples (where hard work doesn't pay off) to feed confirmation bias. The question that I have is this: is the growing narrative about the United States not being a meritocracy a self-fulfilling prophecy. If so, does not thriving because you believe that narrative a personal choice?
- RobertoG 9y ago
  I think you are complicated the issue too much. Who cares if a society it's a meritocracy or not? The point, it seems to me, is, is it a meritocracy that work for most of the people? Because what is the point of a society that doesn't work for most of the people? I know that if I train hard every day I could improve my 100m sprinter time. I also know that never mind what I do, not in a million years I could beat Usain Bolt. If we live in societies where the life of the average guy improve at the same time that the pie grows there is not a problem. If we live in a society where, even when the pie grow my life is worst, and when I complain, you point to Usain Bolt and say "see? it can be done!"; well, I don't think that it's going to work for long. It seems to me that feeling explain a lot of the "populist" movements around the world.
  - Godel_unicode 9y ago
    > never mind what I do, not in a million years I could beat Usain Bolt Maybe this is just a bad analogy, but if you're objectively worse than Usain Bolt then in a meritocracy you should justifiably be worse off. That's a bad expectation anyway, at a population level 0% of people are Usain Bolt. This ultimately leads to a question I've been thinking about a lot; should we as a society be okay with a hard working naturally gifted person being higher paid than an equally hard working non-gifted person.
- gozur88 9y ago
  >The question that I have is this: is the growing narrative about the United States not being a meritocracy a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes, and particularly on the personal level. You'll never be employed if you don't look for a job.

by maxwin 9y ago

Godel_unicode 9y ago

I anecdotally know far more people who coast and don't do well than I know who either coast and do well or don't coast and don't do well. I think part of the problem is a combination of a bias against impugning others effort because "you don't know their struggle" and just enough counter examples (where hard work doesn't pay off) to feed confirmation bias. The question that I have is this: is the growing narrative about the United States not being a meritocracy a self-fulfilling prophecy. If so, does not thriving because you believe that narrative a personal choice?

RobertoG 9y ago
I think you are complicated the issue too much. Who cares if a society it's a meritocracy or not? The point, it seems to me, is, is it a meritocracy that work for most of the people? Because what is the point of a society that doesn't work for most of the people? I know that if I train hard every day I could improve my 100m sprinter time. I also know that never mind what I do, not in a million years I could beat Usain Bolt. If we live in societies where the life of the average guy improve at the same time that the pie grows there is not a problem. If we live in a society where, even when the pie grow my life is worst, and when I complain, you point to Usain Bolt and say "see? it can be done!"; well, I don't think that it's going to work for long. It seems to me that feeling explain a lot of the "populist" movements around the world.
- Godel_unicode 9y ago
  > never mind what I do, not in a million years I could beat Usain Bolt Maybe this is just a bad analogy, but if you're objectively worse than Usain Bolt then in a meritocracy you should justifiably be worse off. That's a bad expectation anyway, at a population level 0% of people are Usain Bolt. This ultimately leads to a question I've been thinking about a lot; should we as a society be okay with a hard working naturally gifted person being higher paid than an equally hard working non-gifted person.
gozur88 9y ago
>The question that I have is this: is the growing narrative about the United States not being a meritocracy a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes, and particularly on the personal level. You'll never be employed if you don't look for a job.