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Yes, it is still harassment with the genders reversed. What would make you think otherwise? But that's not actually the bar. It's important to recognize that m

by skj 9y ago

Yes, it is still harassment with the genders reversed. What would make you think otherwise? But that's not actually the bar. It's important to recognize that men and women don't come in on equal footing for these interactions.

chrischen 9y ago
I’m playing devil’s advocate here but what if the woman found McClure attractive and didn’t complain because of it. Is it still wrong?
- numbsafari 9y ago
  If you steal bread, get caught, and are shown mercy by the baker, did you still not commit a crime? Just because you aren't punished doesn't mean you didn't do something wrong. And before you say "there's no victim if she was okay with it", there was a victim: the company and investors he represented. His actions show that he was not acting with proper ethics, putting them all at risk of lawsuits, criminal action, etc. The fact of the matter is, when you are a hiring manager, you are in a position of power and that power comes with certain ethical obligations and responsibilities. Not just to those applying for a job or funding, but to your company and it's shareholders. And the argument about whether she might like it or not doesn't change the fact that it's inappropriate and creepy.
- ithinkinstereo 9y ago
  Yes, they met as two professionals in the context of an open job position. Inappropriate move #1 was contacting the job applicant over FB, #2 was making a comment about whether or not to "hire" or "hit on" her. The fact that he places the chances of hiring her in relation to "hitting" on her is wildly inappropriate. If he wanted a relationship, there are infinitely better and more appropriate ways to go about it, especially if he thought she might actually be interested. Going via FB in the manner that he did is pure 100% creepy behavior.
  - FeatureRush 9y ago
    > If he wanted a relationship, there are infinitely better and more appropriate ways to go about it, especially if he thought she might actually be interested. McClure aside, in general situation when during recruitment precess you meet someone you would like to date is there really a way to go about it that doesn't end badly? Message during recruitment is plain creepy. Asking them out after they are hired is bad for obvious reasons like you being the superior and him/her having the impression that this is the real reason they've been hired. There was at least one story on HN that I remember when someone wasn't hired and soon after was asked for a date and it also ended badly, even if that person waited some time to be "safe" that still could be counted as stalking and using information summited during the interview for personal reasons is bad. But you can't even ask about their phone number anyway! It doesn't matter if your intentions are honest and you two could be a good couple if you met at different occasion. Once the recruitment process starts he/she is pretty much removed form your dating pool. Even if you ask nicely without any inappropriate signals - any move you make can be seen by him/her as you taking advantage of the situation. Even innocent question about phone number can have really scary implications from his/her point of view. Sure it can end in nice date or maybe an awkward silence and you explaining yourself and apologizing or it can give them a true nightmare... Are you going to risk it?
    - jusssi 9y ago
      > in general situation when during recruitment precess you meet someone you would like to date is there really a way to go about it that doesn't end badly? (a) No, not one where you have any control whether it goes bad or not (b) Your day job is not a dating service (c) If you can't figure out a and b on your own, you're not mature enough for a position of power
      - FeatureRush 9y ago
        Was it not clear that this is what I was saying? That asking out that would be OK in other situations is not OK in the context of job interview?
- awinder 9y ago
  This situation has exactly been covered in every silly sexual harassment video I’ve had to sit through. It’s quite literally “sexual harassment 101”.
- jeffdavis 9y ago
  Sincere questions like this should be answered, not downvoted.
coldtea 9y ago
>Yes, it is still harassment with the genders reversed. What would make you think otherwise? The fact that I, as a man, would just take it as a compliment. Never bought that Demi Moore/Michael Dougles movie premise...
- pm90 9y ago
  Interesting point. However, perhaps the reason why you would just take it as a compliment, is because as a man, you haven't been in the position of being taken advantage of, or desired for purely sexual purposes by women in positions of power. I am making huge assumptions and generalizations of course, but as I understand, it is much more common for older men with power to "take advantage of" more vulnerable women, so women are instinctively taught (or learn) to be wary and incredibly careful in these situations to not give the wrong "signals". Whereas men, generally having no experiences with this dynamic, are more carefree.
192837192321 9y ago
Indeed. I find it sexist that men rarely get those kinds of compliments. [Moderators, have fun censoring this comment, it seems to be all you can do ...]

by skj 9y ago

chrischen 9y ago

I’m playing devil’s advocate here but what if the woman found McClure attractive and didn’t complain because of it. Is it still wrong?

numbsafari 9y ago
If you steal bread, get caught, and are shown mercy by the baker, did you still not commit a crime? Just because you aren't punished doesn't mean you didn't do something wrong. And before you say "there's no victim if she was okay with it", there was a victim: the company and investors he represented. His actions show that he was not acting with proper ethics, putting them all at risk of lawsuits, criminal action, etc. The fact of the matter is, when you are a hiring manager, you are in a position of power and that power comes with certain ethical obligations and responsibilities. Not just to those applying for a job or funding, but to your company and it's shareholders. And the argument about whether she might like it or not doesn't change the fact that it's inappropriate and creepy.
ithinkinstereo 9y ago
Yes, they met as two professionals in the context of an open job position. Inappropriate move #1 was contacting the job applicant over FB, #2 was making a comment about whether or not to "hire" or "hit on" her. The fact that he places the chances of hiring her in relation to "hitting" on her is wildly inappropriate. If he wanted a relationship, there are infinitely better and more appropriate ways to go about it, especially if he thought she might actually be interested. Going via FB in the manner that he did is pure 100% creepy behavior.
- FeatureRush 9y ago
  > If he wanted a relationship, there are infinitely better and more appropriate ways to go about it, especially if he thought she might actually be interested. McClure aside, in general situation when during recruitment precess you meet someone you would like to date is there really a way to go about it that doesn't end badly? Message during recruitment is plain creepy. Asking them out after they are hired is bad for obvious reasons like you being the superior and him/her having the impression that this is the real reason they've been hired. There was at least one story on HN that I remember when someone wasn't hired and soon after was asked for a date and it also ended badly, even if that person waited some time to be "safe" that still could be counted as stalking and using information summited during the interview for personal reasons is bad. But you can't even ask about their phone number anyway! It doesn't matter if your intentions are honest and you two could be a good couple if you met at different occasion. Once the recruitment process starts he/she is pretty much removed form your dating pool. Even if you ask nicely without any inappropriate signals - any move you make can be seen by him/her as you taking advantage of the situation. Even innocent question about phone number can have really scary implications from his/her point of view. Sure it can end in nice date or maybe an awkward silence and you explaining yourself and apologizing or it can give them a true nightmare... Are you going to risk it?
  - jusssi 9y ago
    > in general situation when during recruitment precess you meet someone you would like to date is there really a way to go about it that doesn't end badly? (a) No, not one where you have any control whether it goes bad or not (b) Your day job is not a dating service (c) If you can't figure out a and b on your own, you're not mature enough for a position of power
    - FeatureRush 9y ago
      Was it not clear that this is what I was saying? That asking out that would be OK in other situations is not OK in the context of job interview?
awinder 9y ago
This situation has exactly been covered in every silly sexual harassment video I’ve had to sit through. It’s quite literally “sexual harassment 101”.
jeffdavis 9y ago
Sincere questions like this should be answered, not downvoted.

coldtea 9y ago

>Yes, it is still harassment with the genders reversed. What would make you think otherwise? The fact that I, as a man, would just take it as a compliment. Never bought that Demi Moore/Michael Dougles movie premise...

pm90 9y ago
Interesting point. However, perhaps the reason why you would just take it as a compliment, is because as a man, you haven't been in the position of being taken advantage of, or desired for purely sexual purposes by women in positions of power. I am making huge assumptions and generalizations of course, but as I understand, it is much more common for older men with power to "take advantage of" more vulnerable women, so women are instinctively taught (or learn) to be wary and incredibly careful in these situations to not give the wrong "signals". Whereas men, generally having no experiences with this dynamic, are more carefree.

192837192321 9y ago

Indeed. I find it sexist that men rarely get those kinds of compliments. [Moderators, have fun censoring this comment, it seems to be all you can do ...]